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An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

politico.com

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Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#121

Post by [deleted] »

amluto wrote: post #82
margalabargala wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

> What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. That seems weak. One should not (and legally may not) discriminate on the basis of being Indian, which is a South Asian phenomenon. One should not discriminate on the basis of having Native Hawaiian ancestry, which is a Hawa…

[deleted]

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#123

Post by petesergeant »

margalabargala wrote: post #47
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

> is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon

South Asian, not South-East Asian.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#124

Post by mkoubaa »

whatsup7123 wrote: post #104
ramraj07 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogy here would be, I’m saying I almost got robbed, robbery is real. You’re coming and saying, “this new law won’t solve your issue, it’s for actual robbery only.”

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. Can you describe a specific incident in your employment history where you were fired from a job or denied a promotion due to your caste or ancestry? You should be able to sue for this right now (even before SB403) with this law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_Civil_Rights_Act

I don't think you understand the concept of discrimination

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#125

Post by scarmig »

kevinventullo wrote: post #79
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educated about an issue, the first time it's become a political issue in the U.S.

caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. I mean, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin as one of many, many examples.

"Boston Brahmin" doesn't capture any of the subtleties of caste, nor is it long lasting. The salience of that group lasted at most two centuties, and most Americans wouldn't immediately place someone named Ted Brinley in that group on hearing the name. Exogamy was rampant. The same things are not at all true of a Brahmin.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#126

Post by borski »

superfrank wrote: post #87
KenArrari wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of. At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

Does it? I couldn't find details in the article (I just skimmed it though), but what if a non-Indian with almost no understanding of the caste system wakes up and decides they want to take their bigotry to the next level and starts discriminating based on caste just for the hell of it? Wouldn't they still be guilty under this law?

Of course; but that’s a pretty big leap. It is very unlikely that some non-Indian bigot decides to study up on castes and begin discriminating on their basis. On the other hand, it is a very short leap that someone who is Indian might. Thus, in reality Indians are much more likely to break this law.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#127

Post by uptownfunk »

lannisterstark wrote: post #112
uptownfunk wrote: post #31

Great, good luck enforcing that. Good luck even verifying caste identity. The last name is not even close to 100% valid in determining caste identity. Also, I think whether we admit it or not, we definitely have a notion of caste in the west except it’s a combination of race and socioeconomic identity. Growing up my white friends had a whole network of friends with summer homes and we once took a tour around the USA…

> just staying in unoccupied summer homes of rich white friends. Class divide is not caste divide. Imagine if you went to the market, and you touched someone, and immediately, their parents/people around them flicked drops of water at them to purify them because they got touched by an untouchable. Do you experience THAT in the US? Do you know how humiliating that is? You're being absurd at equating the two.

It’s actually worse. Why are we focusing on caste, which is very isolated, when class divide and class discrimination is a much worse problem. Probably because the upper class who would be adversely affected by any efforts to fix it are the ones in control of driving the agenda. We’re too focused on idealistic feel good politics and not focused enough issues that are affecting most of the nation

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#128

Post by chargingmarmot »

ghodith wrote: post #66
margalabargala wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

> Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment. The bill has already been modified to use that verbiage. "Eventually, Wahab agreed to place caste under “ancestry” rather than list it as a standalone category" So it seems that those still opposed to the bill are not sati…

The bill is opposed by the Hindu American Foundation. They give their rationale for opposing the bill in:

https://www.hinduamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/HAF...

They claim:

"We share the admirable goals of protecting civil rights and eliminating all forms of prejudice and discrimination, including based on caste. As such, the question is not whether we deal with allegations of caste discrimination, but how. If and when caste discrimination allegations emerge, they should be adjudicated under the existing protected class of ancestry, just as the state of California did in California Department of Fair Employment Housing v. Cisco Systems, Inc."

In https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u0jxQY_cLti2XP3nEw0d9OBa... they state:

"There is only one legal case on the issue of caste-discrimination in the United States to date. It involves an allegation of caste-based discrimination in the US."

and give some facts related to that case.

( from https://www.hinduamerican.org/press-statements )

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#129

Post by riku_iki »

uptownfunk wrote: post #45

This has nothing to do with civil rights, it’s just a continuation of colonialism and the rich white man’s “divide and conquer” ideology. They have Modi, Sunak, Vivek is coming, and pretty much every executive team of every major tech company is dominated by people from the Indian subcontinent. Let’s not be fooled here folks, this is cultural oppression and warfare in a hidden form. Why else of all people is Wahab dr…

> They have Modi, Sunak, Vivek is coming, and pretty much every executive team of every major tech company is dominated by people from the Indian subcontinent

I am curious if those people represent specific caste?..

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#130

Post by mkoubaa »

lannisterstark wrote: post #93

Imagine migrating to one of the more open nation-states and bringing your backward-ass practice there. Even in this very thread there are people going "But maybe it's nuanced!" No. It's not. Imagine thinking that someone having to flick water at you to purify you just because you got touched by an untouchable is a nuanced issue and not blatant idiocy. (Before any of you start Reeeing, I'm Indian).

There's this huge myth that people migrate for cultural reasons. To borrow some famous words, "it's the economy, stupid"
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