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An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

politico.com

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Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#81

Post by suoduandao3 »

grayhatter wrote: post #13

As someone completely ignorant in this cultural phenomenon, given it seems to be hurting some people what are the arguments for not banning it as discrimination? (I was hoping to read at least one in the article, but perhaps I'm blind?)

I have no personal experience with this phenomenon, but looking at it from the outside I do see one potential benefit: formalizing class distinctions in that manner must make it a lot harder to 'manufacture consent' when there's a conflict between the best interests of different classes. In Western culture there's a lot of ability to move between social classes by historical standards, and that's probably a good thing, but there are a number of downsides. The tendency to not acknowledge class differences at all can lead to a lot of doublespeak about what would benefit the least fortunate classes, and a lot of extra energy spent by the downwardly mobile wealthy to exclude lower classes in roundabout ways.

Formal divisions between social classes would make it a lot harder to confuse the less wealthy when their interests aren't aligned with the more wealthy. In India for example, my understanding is that the 'shopkeeper' class used to be quite low in the hierarchy, but with the change in global economics, an awful lot of important institutions are now being run by 'shopkeepers', who I presume would have seen those opportunities in a collective way and helped each other capitalize on them, rather than see themselves as no different from the incumbent warrior or priest classes when they arose.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#82

Post by amluto »

margalabargala wrote: post #47
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

> What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race.

That seems weak.

One should not (and legally may not) discriminate on the basis of being Indian, which is a South Asian phenomenon. One should not discriminate on the basis of having Native Hawaiian ancestry, which is a Hawaiian phenomenon. And one should not discriminate on the basis of how many of someone’s ancestors happen to have been slaves in America, which is an American phenomenon (although there are surely analogues elsewhere).

edit: SE -> South.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#83

Post by sqeaky »

HEmanZ wrote: post #60
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educated about an issue, the first time it's become a political issue in the U.S.

It’s really basic social studies in the “world history and cultures” category, I would expect them to learn it in high school. The US had a literal race based “caste-like” system for much of its history. In the South this didn’t end until the 60s, and many people alive today were alive when it was still strictly enforced.

History is functionally infinite, history class time very finite.

I don't think analogies to the caste clarify complex race issues in the US.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#84

Post by whatsup7123 »

ramraj07 wrote: post #43

If I have to count the number of times someone senior to me or some colleague has judged me or severed ties with me because of my caste, it will be 8-10. All in the United States. If anything it’s far worse here than when I grew up in India. I’m not of the “lowest caste” as it’s perceived but by looks I am often mistaken to be a Brahmin, one of the highest ones. So my fellow Brahmins get offended when I’m not strictl…

The new law that is being passed will not solve your personal issues with socializing. The law is designed to protect you from unfair discrimination by your employer, i.e. being fired due to your caste.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#85

Post by mkoubaa »

KenArrari wrote: post #58
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of. At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

I get that argument but have no sympathy for it whatsoever

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#86

Post by thegreenswede »

Glyptodon wrote: post #49
thegreenswede wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely not forgotten in India. Maybe openly talking about in terms of 'caste', sure. But I just visited India for over a month and it was extremely clear they bucket each other into groups. And it's also very alive here in the US. Recently a friend at an ivy league mentioned that an 'upper class' Indian refused to work with a lower class one for their lab's research. Just straight up said he would not intera…

Something like that should be grounds for expulsion IMO.

Impossible to prove tho. You can always just claim you don't like the person for other reasons. That's why this whole 'banning caste' stuff is mostly performative imo. People will just be hostile to each other but not be open with the reason.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#87

Post by superfrank »

KenArrari wrote: post #58
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of. At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

Does it?

I couldn't find details in the article (I just skimmed it though), but what if a non-Indian with almost no understanding of the caste system wakes up and decides they want to take their bigotry to the next level and starts discriminating based on caste just for the hell of it? Wouldn't they still be guilty under this law?

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#88

Post by mkoubaa »

jimbob45 wrote: post #72
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

There’s a glaring absence of any polling on the matter in this article. Instead we get a count of the number of protesters (hundreds!) and descriptions of lines spilling out the door. I get the feeling the author is heavily pro-caste and is carefully selecting data to fit their narrative.

Agreed. Shame on the editor

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#89

Post by margalabargala »

ghodith wrote: post #66
margalabargala wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

> Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment. The bill has already been modified to use that verbiage. "Eventually, Wahab agreed to place caste under “ancestry” rather than list it as a standalone category" So it seems that those still opposed to the bill are not sati…

For sure, which to me says that the targeting issue wasn't actually the real problem, which of course it wasn't.

Discrimination based on ancestry shouldn't be allowed regardless of whether it's on a short timeframe (caste) or a long timeframe (race).

What we're seeing now is what happens when people in positions of nonzero power who are used to getting to discriminate, are told not to. We saw the same thing in the American south when people were told they had to stop discriminating against people of African ancestry.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#90

Post by kevinventullo »

uptownfunk wrote: post #45

This has nothing to do with civil rights, it’s just a continuation of colonialism and the rich white man’s “divide and conquer” ideology. They have Modi, Sunak, Vivek is coming, and pretty much every executive team of every major tech company is dominated by people from the Indian subcontinent. Let’s not be fooled here folks, this is cultural oppression and warfare in a hidden form. Why else of all people is Wahab dr…

It takes some truly impressive mental gymnastics to go from “pretty much every executive team of every major tech company is dominated by people from the Indian subcontinent” to “we are being culturally oppressed.”
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