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An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

politico.com

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Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#51

Post by callalex »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

Most of the people I have talked to in person about this with are opposed because they still like the caste discrimination, they just don’t like being forced to openly admit it. Nonsense about social order and the way things are and whatnot.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#52

Post by SauntSolaire »

From the article:

> At one point, Sharma asked ChatGPT to define “caste,” and then pointed out the number of times that the word “Hindu” appeared in the computer’s response. “That’s not an accident,” Sharma later said in an interview. “It’s been seeded for such a long time. The word is a hate brand.”

I for one am hoping this argument technique doesn't catch on. Pattern matches like a fallacy, "argument from LLM" or some such.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#53

Post by Supermancho »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #17
Supermancho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would it extend longevity? Codifying something in law (or code, ie unit tests) tends to ensure it's durability. Information is something that can exist as an idea ephemerally. Once you write down a definition, it has perceived historical value. Later this can be used as an example of how things were done that might be tried again. Many people recognize this as self-evident.

It's ridiculous though, that's like saying that the 13th amendment assured the longevity of slavery since it was never as explicitly defined in the Constitution.

Try to divorce the concept from the specific issue. It's not ridiculous, on it's face. It's one aspect of history, that seems to hold true. The concept of a belief being promoted by enshrining it in writing, is not a truth, but a matter of circumstance. eg Any religious writings.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#54

Post by uoaei »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #22
kashunstva wrote: post #14

> “A lot of staff asked, ‘What is caste?’” Wait - these staffers are working in government but know so little about world history and culture that they’re clueless about caste? Maybe that’s part of the problem of getting progressive consensus on this bill.

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educated about an issue, the first time it's become a political issue in the U.S.

There's a preponderance of Indian and other South Asian immigrants in California, so much so it can be considered part of the culture. It is shocking that such ignorance exists in California specifically, though not as surprising necessarily that such awareness is missing in other parts of the US.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#55

Post by rectang »

> a proposal that many felt was unnecessary and unfairly tarnished the image of the South Asian community

I'm white yet I don't feel "unfairly tarnished" by the banning of white supremacy.

Nevertheless, plenty of Americans (mostly but not exclusively white) do oppose legislative constraints on white supremacy and I think it's fair to say that they "feel tarnished" by them. My read is that this opposition comes from the same place.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#56

Post by ramraj07 »

whatsup7123 wrote: post #36

Here's are some video clips of the head of Equality Labs, who is shown in the picture featured in this article. She claims that Nazis in Germany were actually Hindus, as support for her point of view. https://youtu.be/sGQ4r4ElLyQ?si=q8S-u3dO7QWbQUaB

This seems like a cherry-picked snippet taken out of context. She compared them to the Germans yes but not some conspiracy theory that they ARE them.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#57

Post by ncallaway »

Supermancho wrote: post #11
ugh123 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? How would it extend longevity? Seems like people who are fighting this are likely the ones still benefitting from this system

> How would it extend longevity? Codifying something in law (or code, ie unit tests) tends to ensure it's durability. Information is something that can exist as an idea ephemerally. Once you write down a definition, it has perceived historical value. Later this can be used as an example of how things were done that might be tried again. Many people recognize this as self-evident.

Yes, which is why the United States frequently has never-ending debates on whether soldiers should be quartered in the homes of civilians.

I find that when people defend something as self-evident it often isn’t.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#58

Post by KenArrari »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of.

At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#59

Post by mutant_glofish »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

[flagged]

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#60

Post by HEmanZ »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #22
kashunstva wrote: post #14

> “A lot of staff asked, ‘What is caste?’” Wait - these staffers are working in government but know so little about world history and culture that they’re clueless about caste? Maybe that’s part of the problem of getting progressive consensus on this bill.

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educated about an issue, the first time it's become a political issue in the U.S.

It’s really basic social studies in the “world history and cultures” category, I would expect them to learn it in high school.

The US had a literal race based “caste-like” system for much of its history. In the South this didn’t end until the 60s, and many people alive today were alive when it was still strictly enforced.

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