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Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

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Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#41

Post by avereveard »

hipnoizz wrote: post #37
avereveard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well except when it doesn't, I guess. All combination of consonants may unpredictably get rounded down to f (wszystko) ą pronunciation at the end of the word has a wide range of sounds depending on regional accents, ę is the same but worse because it's usually ignored even in common words (część), you have all the usual Ci Cy Ca rules for palatal consonant, except these characters can also be part of longer sequences…

I would not be so optimistic to say 99%, but I think a lot of things like that could be actually assigned to some rules that are, well, actually applied pretty consistently. E.g. isn't devoicing of 'w' in 'wszystko' just the case of clusters of voiced and voiceless consonants? Similary 'Hodów' shows devoicing consonants at the end of a word. I'm not sure about 'ą' - some examples would handy, but if we are talking ab…

Well ę in część is without the n never heard it with n, but I definitely use the n in words like jęzik, so yeah you cannot generalize between those nasals and "say n if it's in the middle of a word" only goes so far

Ą is a bit more regular at that, so usually loses the n when at the end of a word and never heard without n when in the middle of a word, except in places like Warsaw, and other cities up north, where I was called out as gòralski (which is funny considering I'm Italian, I guess I'm learning polish wrong but convincingly enough)

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#42

Post by hipnoizz »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #21
uoaei wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For additional context, Polish words are always pronounced with emphasis on the second-to-last syllable. So `HO-doof`.

Grzmot? How about surnames? Jóźwiak -> yoo-ZHVI-ak or YOOZH-vi-ak?

'grzmot' has just one syllable, right (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grzmot). So yes, you can't stress the penultimate one, as it isn't there. ;-)

I think 'Jóźwiak' would be syllabified as 'Jóź-wiak' or 'Jó-źwiak'. I may be wrong, I think we don't have always just one way to syllabify a word in Poland.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#43

Post by hipnoizz »

avereveard wrote: post #41
hipnoizz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not be so optimistic to say 99%, but I think a lot of things like that could be actually assigned to some rules that are, well, actually applied pretty consistently. E.g. isn't devoicing of 'w' in 'wszystko' just the case of clusters of voiced and voiceless consonants? Similary 'Hodów' shows devoicing consonants at the end of a word. I'm not sure about 'ą' - some examples would handy, but if we are talking ab…

Well ę in część is without the n never heard it with n, but I definitely use the n in words like jęzik, so yeah you cannot generalize between those nasals and "say n if it's in the middle of a word" only goes so far Ą is a bit more regular at that, so usually loses the n when at the end of a word and never heard without n when in the middle of a word, except in places like Warsaw, and other cities up north, where I w…

My first reaction was that I would pronounce 'ę' in both 'część' and 'język' in the same way, i.e. without 'n'. But I can see that pronunciation of these words as per https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cz%C4%99%C5%9B%C4%87 and https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/j%C4%99zyk disagrees. And then a quick search brought these 'simple' four rules (https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/Wymowa-samoglosek-nosowych...) for pronouncing 'ą' and 'ę' in the middle of a word ;-)

So yeah, everything is easy, simple and obvious when you are a native speaker and I stand corrected :)

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#44

Post by ChatGTP »

baq wrote: post #15
ChatGTP wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious why you think HN is such a bastion of truth and reason to be honest ? Look at the super conductor news a few weeks back. More people bought it than I imagined they would.

That... wasn't what the GP post was about?

No but they said they were "surprised HN bought it", does HN have some type of special level of skepticism built into it that no where else online does? I personally don't think it does.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#45

Post by pawelduda »

hiacynt wrote: post #34
mateuszf wrote: post #2

As a Polish guy - I would not trust a single thing shown in the national propagandist TVP television. It's really weird to see this on Hacker News.

Yes, TVP is generally extremely biased and only presents the government's side of things. Similarly to TVN, another popular TV station in Poland, which is biased but interprets facts in favor of the opposition. It's just how things are in Poland, it's not too different from what you can find in the US. However, TVP World (an branch of TVP publishing in English) is actually not too bad. It's still biased but not dumbe…

TVP is *heavily* funded by government and biased in favor of government, important detail when comparing it to other, privately funded TV stations. It's a literal brainwashing machine everyone pays for without opt-out.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#46

Post by avereveard »

hipnoizz wrote: post #43
avereveard wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ę in część is without the n never heard it with n, but I definitely use the n in words like jęzik, so yeah you cannot generalize between those nasals and "say n if it's in the middle of a word" only goes so far Ą is a bit more regular at that, so usually loses the n when at the end of a word and never heard without n when in the middle of a word, except in places like Warsaw, and other cities up north, where I w…

My first reaction was that I would pronounce 'ę' in both 'część' and 'język' in the same way, i.e. without 'n'. But I can see that pronunciation of these words as per https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cz%C4%99%C5%9B%C4%87 and https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/j%C4%99zyk disagrees. And then a quick search brought these 'simple' four rules ( https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/Wymowa-samoglosek-nosowych... ) for pronouncing 'ą…

Ah also chcesz I've no idea how to pronounce that maybe an X at the beginning and a fshhhh at the end no idea.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#47

Post by jjtheblunt »

oneshtein wrote: post #35
jjtheblunt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grzmot? How about surnames? Jóźwiak -> yoo-ZHVI-ak or YOOZH-vi-ak?

YOOZH-viak grzmOt

oh interesting point: the slavic y+{a,e,i,o,u} thing turns those surnames ending in consonant+iak into a single syllable, whereas in germanic the y would be a glide, demarcation of a syllable to its left and another to its right?

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#48

Post by ajuc »

matesz wrote: post #38
mateuszf wrote: post #2

As a Polish guy - I would not trust a single thing shown in the national propagandist TVP television. It's really weird to see this on Hacker News.

I second that it is weird to read this from TVP source. I highly recommend to read Noam Chomsky's article on Eastern European dissidents [1]. Really hits home what exceptionalism is, by just showing in contrast to what happens in other parts of the World. Also, highly recommend "The Last Of The Just" by André Schwarz-Bart. It is soo good that there is nothing else for me to say than to just read it. I've read it once…

Chomsky has a pretty obvious pro-russian bias. He's a "tankie" basically :) Look at what he wrote on Russian invasion of Ukraine :)

As for Russia-US symmetrism - it's bullshit.

Soviets did mass ethnic cleansing in 20th century to the level that USA only ever aproached during the conquest of the wild west.

And Russia had its own wild east - which was conquered just as brutally as the American wild west and which is still ruled with iron fist. Where Americans eventually recognized Indians as a minority with special rights - Soviets are still sending their Indians in thousands to die in their colonial wars.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#49

Post by matesz »

ajuc wrote: post #48
matesz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that it is weird to read this from TVP source. I highly recommend to read Noam Chomsky's article on Eastern European dissidents [1]. Really hits home what exceptionalism is, by just showing in contrast to what happens in other parts of the World. Also, highly recommend "The Last Of The Just" by André Schwarz-Bart. It is soo good that there is nothing else for me to say than to just read it. I've read it once…

Chomsky has a pretty obvious pro-russian bias. He's a "tankie" basically :) Look at what he wrote on Russian invasion of Ukraine :) As for Russia-US symmetrism - it's bullshit. Soviets did mass ethnic cleansing in 20th century to the level that USA only ever aproached during the conquest of the wild west. And Russia had its own wild east - which was conquered just as brutally as the American wild west and which is st…

> Look at what he wrote on Russian invasion of Ukraine :)

Just let yourself think about what his counterparts in US were saying. That Russia would collapse and Putin's oppresionist government is going to be overthrown by protestors? Don't you see that what we get is Putin's approval rating a historic high?

And nobody in US wants to be seen as "weak on Russia".

Only now there is more people who start saying clearly that the war is not going to stop, it is going to last number of years, and impratant bit, Ukraine is going to be completely destroyed in the process. And what Ukrainian people are going to get in return? EU membership? Western valus? Freedom?

Once you get this, the whole narrative people like Chomsky are proposing, that in 2004 this, in 2008 that, can be seen in a new light. You can read "The Art of Diplomacy" by Francois de Callieres, about 17th century european politics, which is talking about how to do international relations. Really helpful to see that this situation in Ukraine is not new - in other words, what is happening now could be forseen before the war broke out.

ps. I know quite a few Ukrainians very well who escaped the war, many from the demolished easter cities. And it didn't even cross my mind to tell them that I oppose anything Ukraine is doing atm.

Re: Battle of Hodów: When 400 Poles repelled 40,000 Tatars in 1694

#50

Post by _kbh_ »

matesz wrote: post #49
ajuc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky has a pretty obvious pro-russian bias. He's a "tankie" basically :) Look at what he wrote on Russian invasion of Ukraine :) As for Russia-US symmetrism - it's bullshit. Soviets did mass ethnic cleansing in 20th century to the level that USA only ever aproached during the conquest of the wild west. And Russia had its own wild east - which was conquered just as brutally as the American wild west and which is st…

> Look at what he wrote on Russian invasion of Ukraine :) Just let yourself think about what his counterparts in US were saying. That Russia would collapse and Putin's oppresionist government is going to be overthrown by protestors? Don't you see that what we get is Putin's approval rating a historic high? And nobody in US wants to be seen as "weak on Russia". Only now there is more people who start saying clearly th…

> Only now there is more people who start saying clearly that the war is not going to stop, it is going to last number of years, and impratant bit, Ukraine is going to be completely destroyed in the process. And what Ukrainian people are going to get in return? EU membership? Western valus? Freedom?

Are these things not worth fighting for?. If you don't fight for your freedom then what would you fight for?.

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