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Yenish people

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Re: Yenish people

#71

Post by anon2929 »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #67
hef19898 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if, just bear with me, what if said traveller families do, again bear with me, not see theft as part of their culture? Because it is called root cause analysis and not "root cause speculation" for a reason...

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed appr…

There you go with your pesky facts that back up common experience.

Re: Yenish people

#72

Post by eru »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #51
H8crilA wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crime statistics are real, though. Failing to recognize the problem created the likes of Alternative für Deutschland, Marine Le Pen, Brexit. Let me reiterate it, because it is crucial: liberal policy of pretending that the problem doesn't exist is what created all those garbage political organization. Which, interestingly, are often co-financed by Russia.

It's worth pointing out that you're using the word "liberal policy" in its US meaning, which is rather misleading for the EU. Liberals in Europe are mostly center right-wing, for low taxes and for more company freedom (as in "neoliberal"). There are some left-wing liberals left, but they are somewhat rare. As for the claim that "ignoring the problems" is a "liberal policy" - that's a made up strawman.

> It's worth pointing out that you're using the word "liberal policy" in its US meaning, which is rather misleading for the EU. Liberals in Europe are mostly center right-wing, for low taxes and for more company freedom (as in "neoliberal"). There are some left-wing liberals left, but they are somewhat rare.

This was true 20 years ago. But I found that the meaning of the word has shifted more and more since then.

Funny enough, 'neoliberal' has also shifted a lot over its life, but that shift happened much earlier.

A 'neoliberal' used to be someone who like the 'social market economy', like Ludwig Erhard. Instead of both unfettered 'Manchester capitalism' and socialism.

Of course, these days 'neoliberal' ostensibly means someone who wants markets über alles, but is mostly used as an insult against anyone who dislikes markets slightly less than the speaker.

Re: Yenish people

#73

Post by OfSanguineFire »

hef19898 wrote: post #70
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed appr…

Do you have a source to that? Because all statistics I know actually show no real problems around theft and other peoperty crimes. Not saying said crime doesn't exist, also not saying travellers aren't committing them (because of course every group has its criminals). All I dispute is that some crime is a reason to discriminate a whole grpup, further marginalize them, and making it easier for them see no problem in c…

You can refer to the paragraph I added in an edit. I fully agree that any such crime is not a reason to marginalize a whole ethnic group. But you yourself acknowledge that criminals exist, and you spoke of addressing root causes for crime, so how do you address the root cause for those families I mentioned?

I’m not linking to said friend’s research here lest I dox her and myself on a subject that seems contentious enough for some HN readers to possibly cause trouble for her.

Re: Yenish people

#74

Post by hef19898 »

anon2929 wrote: post #71
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed appr…

There you go with your pesky facts that back up common experience.

No facts to see, other than some anecdotes. If those interviews are backed by proper context, analysis and statostics, sure. So far, all I see is an intwressting insigjt into a culture I don't know a lot of.

Edit: You just created this account for what exactly?

Re: Yenish people

#75

Post by sneak »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #57

I grew up in Eastern Europe among many minorities. I had friends who were Lipovans (Russian old believers who escaped persecution in Russia in the 17th century), Armenians that escaped the genocide by the turks, descendants of Phanariots (ottoman Greeks), and of course Gypsies both "white" and otherwise. We would refer to white gypsies as "blonde gypsies". I am pretty sure the guy who we would call "blonde gypsie" wa…

For others:

Old Believers (a new term to me) are Russian orthodox catholics that didn't fork with the rest of Russia in the eastern orthodox schism in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

Re: Yenish people

#76

Post by hef19898 »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #73
hef19898 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source to that? Because all statistics I know actually show no real problems around theft and other peoperty crimes. Not saying said crime doesn't exist, also not saying travellers aren't committing them (because of course every group has its criminals). All I dispute is that some crime is a reason to discriminate a whole grpup, further marginalize them, and making it easier for them see no problem in c…

You can refer to the paragraph I added in an edit. I fully agree that any such crime is not a reason to marginalize a whole ethnic group. But you yourself acknowledge that criminals exist, and you spoke of addressing root causes for crime, so how do you address the root cause for those families I mentioned? I’m not linking to said friend’s research here lest I dox her and myself on a subject that seems contentious en…

Fair enough I guess, re doxxing.

Crime exists, different crimes are committed by different groups. Saying those crimes are inherent, dor whatever reason, to certain groups is just a bad take. Those groups migjt be more prone to commit certain crimes due to circumstances, but than those circumstances need being further analyzed. And yes, property crimes, with an already frightingly low rate of successful police investigations, is easier for people being constantly on the move.

One thing that is also true: marginalized, discrimintaed and sidelined groups are more likely to commit crimes. So, one reason would be to offer alternatives, and as a society accept them as they are. Doesn't mean zero crime will be committed, but then again crime is a general problem that will never ever go away ever.

Re: Yenish people

#77

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

sneak wrote: post #75
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #57

I grew up in Eastern Europe among many minorities. I had friends who were Lipovans (Russian old believers who escaped persecution in Russia in the 17th century), Armenians that escaped the genocide by the turks, descendants of Phanariots (ottoman Greeks), and of course Gypsies both "white" and otherwise. We would refer to white gypsies as "blonde gypsies". I am pretty sure the guy who we would call "blonde gypsie" wa…

For others: Old Believers (a new term to me) are Russian orthodox catholics that didn't fork with the rest of Russia in the eastern orthodox schism in the 17th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

They are predominantly not catholic, still eastern orthodox. But I think the eastern orthodox church had some reforms that they did not agree with.

Re: Yenish people

#78

Post by fuzztester »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #57

I grew up in Eastern Europe among many minorities. I had friends who were Lipovans (Russian old believers who escaped persecution in Russia in the 17th century), Armenians that escaped the genocide by the turks, descendants of Phanariots (ottoman Greeks), and of course Gypsies both "white" and otherwise. We would refer to white gypsies as "blonde gypsies". I am pretty sure the guy who we would call "blonde gypsie" wa…

>People often liked discussing the similarities and differences between each other's cultures.

Yes, that's fun to do, if done without denigrating them.

>I remember a gypsie person being fascinated by the fact that gypsies and jews share some customs, such as covering the mirrors when people die and putting away their shoes.

Well, that makes a kind of sense, if you consider to be true the theory that gypsies came to Europe from north-west India (Rajasthan and nearby areas) by way of Iran, the Middle East, etc. Since the Middle East had many Jews, and migration would have been slow in those days (no fast modern transport), the gypsies may have picked up some Jewish customs like those you mentioned, by interacting with Jews while en route to Europe.

And going to Europe may not have been their original plan anyway. One guess is that they could just have slowly, organically, drifted further and further away from India, possibly staying in each place until they had to leave, for trading for livelihood, or because forced out, or for any other reason.

.

Re: Yenish people

#79

Post by amelius »

mortureb wrote: post #9
sakex wrote: post #8

We have some people of the road in Geneva. I'm not sure if they're Yenish or not but the usually arrive at the beginning of Spring and leave at the end of the Summer.

Where do they go in winter? That being said, a nomadic lifestyle sounds so interesting and romantic. Too bad most nomads are heavily discriminated against.

A nomadic lifestyle sounds romantic, until you start thinking about connection to electricity, fresh water, and sewage.

Re: Yenish people

#80

Post by konschubert »

hef19898 wrote: post #59
konschubert wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not op: I think that a child primarily belongs to itself and not to the parents. A child has rights that limit what the parents can do with their child. Society should take care that children’s rights and freedoms are respected. Going to school is such a right. There are ways to live on the move and still send your kids to school. If a child doesn’t go to school, I think society is responsible for making sure it does…

Yes, there I agree. Within legal.limits, meaning kids have to go to school for nine years starting age 6. No obligation to graduate in any form. Me supporting that form of publoc education flies in the face of the "public schools bad fpr reasons home schooling better" crowd. Funny so, that a lot that crowd seem to have a harder time allowing minority groups to home school their children. Either way, whatever parents…

Agreed.

Laws should be indiscriminate and should be evenly enforced.

They should not be driven by moral outrage about what other people do with their lives.

They should focus on what is best for the child, while still considering the needs of the parents.

Going to school is important, it provides personal formation, liberty and opportunities.

That being said, a lot of school systems are really bad and underfunded - that is a problem, too!

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