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Yenish people

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Re: Yenish people

#51

Post by jonathanstrange »

H8crilA wrote: post #44
hnbad wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's less that the law led to difficulties and more that the law ignited pre-existing bigotry, similar to some poor white Americans being opposed to welfare out of biases against poor black Americans thanks to a successful (implicitly racial) hysteria about "welfare queens". The Prussians were "fine"[0] with travelers as long as they were second-class citizens who didn't have access to welfare. As soon as citiz…

The crime statistics are real, though. Failing to recognize the problem created the likes of Alternative für Deutschland, Marine Le Pen, Brexit. Let me reiterate it, because it is crucial: liberal policy of pretending that the problem doesn't exist is what created all those garbage political organization. Which, interestingly, are often co-financed by Russia.

It's worth pointing out that you're using the word "liberal policy" in its US meaning, which is rather misleading for the EU. Liberals in Europe are mostly center right-wing, for low taxes and for more company freedom (as in "neoliberal"). There are some left-wing liberals left, but they are somewhat rare.

As for the claim that "ignoring the problems" is a "liberal policy" - that's a made up strawman.

Re: Yenish people

#52

Post by flakeoil »

hef19898 wrote: post #40
flakeoil wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't defend that policy, but on the other hand, the children who stay and live the Yenish life will often not get a good education and will have to continue to live a life outside the regular society.

So, while not defending taking children away from their parents, you think it has benefits? Interesting take.

I don't think it has any benefits to remove children from their parents. That's why I think that was a bad policy.

I think however it would be beneficial for the children if their parents adapted their lifestyle to fit the modern society and better integrate into society. 150 years ago their lifestyle might have made sense, but less so today where they could get better jobs if they had a better education and they could also get support from society if needed. It's sad to see these parents taking away so many opportunities for their children.

Re: Yenish people

#53

Post by hef19898 »

flakeoil wrote: post #52
hef19898 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, while not defending taking children away from their parents, you think it has benefits? Interesting take.

I don't think it has any benefits to remove children from their parents. That's why I think that was a bad policy. I think however it would be beneficial for the children if their parents adapted their lifestyle to fit the modern society and better integrate into society. 150 years ago their lifestyle might have made sense, but less so today where they could get better jobs if they had a better education and they cou…

Well, luckily that is the parents call, and not ypurs. Nor is it mine or anyone elses call to make. Exceptions are those cleqrly defined illegal things like abuse, sexual abuse and so on. And heck, even those get abused and misused by authorities all the damn time. If anything, minorities with somewhat different life styles should even be more protected as well, or not so well, meaning social workers can use those rules arpund child protection to really ruim peoples lives. Systematically taking away children is just the most extreme, and overt, form of that.

Re: Yenish people

#54

Post by konschubert »

hef19898 wrote: post #40
flakeoil wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't defend that policy, but on the other hand, the children who stay and live the Yenish life will often not get a good education and will have to continue to live a life outside the regular society.

So, while not defending taking children away from their parents, you think it has benefits? Interesting take.

Not op:

I think that a child primarily belongs to itself and not to the parents. A child has rights that limit what the parents can do with their child.

Society should take care that children’s rights and freedoms are respected.

Going to school is such a right.

There are ways to live on the move and still send your kids to school. If a child doesn’t go to school, I think society is responsible for making sure it does.

Re: Yenish people

#55

Post by input_sh »

rendall wrote: post #27
gerdesj wrote: post #20

Many comments here are along the lines of: "we have ... gypsies ... here too and they are called ...". I recently visited a museum in (Kingston upon) Hull - 'ull. The Streetlife one. A wall board managed to describe most of the wandering tribes hereabouts (UK and Éire), where they hail from, their modus operandi, a brief history and how to refer to them with a fair chance of not causing offence. I had no idea that Ro…

> I had no idea that Roma and Romany were not the same thing ... They aren't? Would you mind saying more about what this?

The easiest way to understand where the difference comes from is that they didn't all travel to Europe in one big wave, it was in multiple waves hundreds of years apart, and they settled into and were influenced by very different European cultures (as well as cultures they passed through on their way to Europe). We tend to lump them all together into the term Romani, but there's cultural distinctions within, different dialects, etc.

Probably the biggest split is a so-called North-South divide, with Romani people you'll find in the wider Balkan area being fairly distinct from those in the west-ish Europe, which themselves are distinct (but slighly less distinct) than those you'll find in the north-east-ish Europe (Belarus, Baltic states, Russia), with many smaller groups scattered across. They're pretty much all billingual and very used to borrowing words from the local languages, so it'd be rather difficult for two Romani people from opposite sides of Europe to understand each other. And we're trying to discuss them in English, which requires another translation on top of the Romani → local European language translation, which tends to get quite complicated rather quickly.

Re: Yenish people

#56

Post by hef19898 »

nixass wrote: post #50
hef19898 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have evwr seen how Beduins, and other nomads, live? Hardly comparable to our comfortable life style as full time employees im developed industrial nations... I am so tired of the "social welfare queen" trope paraded around to argue against the poor and otherwise perceived minorities.

I am more referring to mainland Europe and Irish/British travelers, should've pointed that out

And I didn't limit my argument in any way, explicitely I include travellers in developed nations too.

Re: Yenish people

#57

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

I grew up in Eastern Europe among many minorities. I had friends who were Lipovans (Russian old believers who escaped persecution in Russia in the 17th century), Armenians that escaped the genocide by the turks, descendants of Phanariots (ottoman Greeks), and of course Gypsies both "white" and otherwise. We would refer to white gypsies as "blonde gypsies". I am pretty sure the guy who we would call "blonde gypsie" was a person of yenish background because he did speak a language of his own, and I did notice words of hebrew origin that in yiddish my community would have used the germanic version of rather than the hebrew (my family is Jewish). He had a proclivity to getting into trouble a lot and liked pulling pranks on everyone, but underneath it all he was a very warm person that had a lot of goodness and love within him.

We had also a macedonian person in highschool that spoke some dialect that i could understand 10% of.

Not sure where I'm going with this story, but I do feel like I grew up in some pre-nationalism bubble where it was completely normal for everyone to come from very diverse backgrounds that were very well preserved despite all of us living together in the same society and getting along just fine.

People often liked discussing the similarities and differences between each other's cultures. I remember a gypsie person being fascinated by the fact that gypsies and jews share some customs, such as covering the mirrors when people die and putting away their shoes.

Re: Yenish people

#58

Post by Biologist123 »

There is still a tradition of very small family-owned travelling circuses in parts of Germany, where tents seat about 40-50 people, and all acts are performed by circus family members. I wondered who the performers were and what there origin was. They definitely spoke good German, but the circus names don't seem 100% Germanic. At one I attended 3 or 4 years ago, the ringmaster threw daggers at volunteer spectators, missing them and pegging a wooden board behind them. Are the owner/operators Yenish?

If anyone knows more about this tradition, I would be keen to know.

Re: Yenish people

#59

Post by hef19898 »

konschubert wrote: post #54
hef19898 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, while not defending taking children away from their parents, you think it has benefits? Interesting take.

Not op: I think that a child primarily belongs to itself and not to the parents. A child has rights that limit what the parents can do with their child. Society should take care that children’s rights and freedoms are respected. Going to school is such a right. There are ways to live on the move and still send your kids to school. If a child doesn’t go to school, I think society is responsible for making sure it does…

Yes, there I agree. Within legal.limits, meaning kids have to go to school for nine years starting age 6. No obligation to graduate in any form.

Me supporting that form of publoc education flies in the face of the "public schools bad fpr reasons home schooling better" crowd. Funny so, that a lot that crowd seem to have a harder time allowing minority groups to home school their children. Either way, whatever parents and their children can do and decide is usually very well defined in various laws. As long as those laws are not discriminatory in nature, whatever is allowed is not anybodies business when it comes to other families. How society sees those things, well, the only way to codify that is througj laws. And those have to got through the normal, democratic, legislative process. Everything else is just an opinion. And those become dangerous sometimes if acted upon, especially if backed by well meaning, knowing better than you, convictions. Because those convivtions give moral high ground, and that allows tp cope with all kinds of attrocities in the name of the higher good.

Examples: Every single church run orphanage, home for single mothers in Ireland, boarding schools (including those for minorities) in Canada, the US, Australia, the various adoption programs (including the one Switzerland)...

I hope you see the problem.

Re: Yenish people

#60

Post by H8crilA »

hef19898 wrote: post #45
H8crilA wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crime statistics are real, though. Failing to recognize the problem created the likes of Alternative für Deutschland, Marine Le Pen, Brexit. Let me reiterate it, because it is crucial: liberal policy of pretending that the problem doesn't exist is what created all those garbage political organization. Which, interestingly, are often co-financed by Russia.

No, failing to adress the root causes behind the statistics, and failure to properly report and read them, is what enabled the AfD Le Pen to actually use those issues for their populist agendas. Brexit was a different thing.

You can't address the problem if you can't talk about it.

Also it's not a maths problem that somehow some people got wrong, it's a problem with entire neighborhoods where it's dangerous to go to.

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