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Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

ian-leslie.com

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Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#151
post #147
post #19

I would find this piece more convincing if it had sampled stories from different sources in service of its thesis rather than focusing on a single work the author finds particularly galling, as there is no shortage of fictional narratives anywhere — look no further than US state-approved high-school history textbooks. Given the narrowness of the material cited, this piece seems to me like unequal application of skept…

Historians are overwhelmingly on the left, so it’s not surprising most examples come from that. But if you wanted right wing dramatic narratives you could look at Niall Ferguson maybe.

Every GOP backed US History book's chapter on slavery would be another example.

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#152

"Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories which gain attention and make ‘impact’" Asserted without evidence in an opinion piece arguing for the use of evidence. Not super compelling. Historian's have had incentives for dramatic narratives since the age of Homer.

See: increasingly strong

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#153
post #58

1780 was way late for claiming the invention of a slitting mill. The first slitting mill in the Americas was built around 1640. It still exists, as a historical site and museum.[1] Some of the original slitting rollers for making bar stock are on display.[2] That wasn't the first slitting mill; there were earlier ones in Britain. [1] https://www.nps.gov/sair/index.htm [2] https://www.nps.gov/sair/planyourvisit/places…

The claim is that that is when the Cort process was invented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cort#Rolling_mill_and_pu...

Wikipedia also says Cort was born around 1740, so that's a good lower bound even if the 1780s patents came a little late ;)

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#154
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you realise that the research you present here is not actually evidence? It is a link to a historian's opinion. It would be like reading a quote from the guardian about how Bulstrode is presenting remarkable research. Meta analysis such as this, based on hearsay rather than personal verification and assessment of the actual evidence, is assuredly not the way to get to the truth of the matter.

Seems like a fairly intuitive claim though.

The idea of a flat earth is also a fairly intuitive claim too, as none of us experience any of the sphere earth attributes - we don't see a curve, experience the spin, etc. Intuition without evidence is really just a story.

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#155

Let's think about academia for a second and the metrics we use. You must publish often and your work most be "novel." The more novel, the more prestige, the more frequent the faster you rise. This is a system that's problematic for science, but crazy in humanities. One reason in science is it discourages replication. But there is a parallel here in something like history, reinvestigation. Something like the Roman Emp…

I often think the same, in fact in my todo list is (in the background) think of more ways to reduce the bureaucracy I face on a daily basis, which takes many forms - from arguing with reviewer #2 over whether or not my finding is notable, to trying to convince a panel that my idea is worth funding.

From a system design perspective, alas resources are limited and have to be allocated somehow, and in the absence of any metrics at all as you suggest, it would ultimately come back to who can tell the better story about their work. This is still at best only weakly correlated with the actual quality of the work.

And so we run up against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle's_ir...

The situation could definitely be better than the current one, but alas I don't have any magic solution.

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#156

"Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories which gain attention and make ‘impact’" Asserted without evidence in an opinion piece arguing for the use of evidence. Not super compelling. Historian's have had incentives for dramatic narratives since the age of Homer.

I wouldn't know how you would be able to present evidence of this, but the economic realities of liberals arts and niche fields of research is a pretty well known circumstance.

Funding arctic expeditions and research tends to be easier if you find some man-eating killer penguins that were frozen in the ice and now resurface due to climate change. Getting funding is politics and politics needs to make headlines.

Since headlines do get more sensationalist due to the attention economy, it could be concluded that scientific claims have to follow the trend.

The example given about the iron inventions was likewise asserted without evidence and purely from conjecture (at least that is how it is described). This is no empirical evidence to prove a systemic effect, but nevertheless interesting.

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#157

"Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories which gain attention and make ‘impact’" Asserted without evidence in an opinion piece arguing for the use of evidence. Not super compelling. Historian's have had incentives for dramatic narratives since the age of Homer.

The writing is reporting on a sensationalist article praised by peers and famed by media debunked perhaps completely by an other article with a potential motive picked that is not too far from what we all experience in the sensationalist world around us but now sweeping into peer reviewed articles too. What sort of evidentic proof you need that measures the incresing (observe the meaning of this word please when referring to Homer) incentives for being sensationalist exactly? Is there some sort of objectic measurement for dramatic storitelling you miss? Isn't enough considering this piece what it is as an educated speculation on what has happened here? Must not come up with a theory before have all the empirically evidence forming an ironclad around it?

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#158
> Bulstrode hasn’t yet responded to Jelf or Howes in public, but it’s hard to see how her paper can be creditably defended.

> I doubt that Bulstrode set out to deceive.

No, I think she did. If your intentions are good, you would address the concerns and correct the record. Those around her have a _duty_ to strongly encourage her to do so, otherwise they are complicit.

> It’s one thing for a young and passionate academic to make mistakes; it’s quite another for a series of experienced academics to let her make them.

The reason these other experienced academics are onboard is because it fits a narrative that has involved rewriting history in front of our very eyes. You just need to take a quick look at the language used, it has swallowed academia.

To get grants in academia now (particularly in some spaces), you have to justify how it will have some form of social justice impact. The work itself could be completely abstract, but now the results are tainted by the lens you were forced to put on the work in order to receive funding. I am not surprised for example that a University funded a history paper that showed Jamaican metallurgists used ancient black magic, but it was stolen by the evil white man.

There are some pockets of academics holding out, but they evaporate quickly. They are leaving academia and receiving a minimum of double salary in the private sector. Expect to see more and more work like this come out of academia, as they replace these people with those who echo the proper narrative to get the grant funding.

Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories

#160
post #147
post #19

I would find this piece more convincing if it had sampled stories from different sources in service of its thesis rather than focusing on a single work the author finds particularly galling, as there is no shortage of fictional narratives anywhere — look no further than US state-approved high-school history textbooks. Given the narrowness of the material cited, this piece seems to me like unequal application of skept…

Historians are overwhelmingly on the left, so it’s not surprising most examples come from that. But if you wanted right wing dramatic narratives you could look at Niall Ferguson maybe.

Apparently Howard Zinn is largely responsible for the glorification of communist and vilification of fascism.
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