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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#431

Post by hzay »

I'm a woman, this happens to me (not very often but that might be because I've worked in this industry only for two years) and whenever it does, I just say something horribly cold.

One day I had a pretty watch on, and a male coworker said "That's such a come-hither watch". He was one of the most intelligent people I'd met, and it was painful to hear that come from him. I made an exception and tried to tell him that one might wear something pretty simply because they liked wearing it but I don't believe I got my point across.

I don't think it's a reason to quit though. Everyone suffers from several disadvantages that others might not know about. For example, the guy above once complained that some american universities (like purdue university) prefer women candidates to improve their sex ratio, and that it's unfair.

I don't want to tell you to stoically put up with this problem, but that's what I try to do.

Re: "Lighten up"

#432

Post by colanderman »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #273
yelsgib wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

If you worked with me, I would tell the entire office that everyone is welcome to the 24-pack of beer I brought from home ... except you .

I believe that would make you a petty asshole. There's a huge difference between offering to organize something social and being told to do so.

Re: "Lighten up"

#434

Post by MartinCron »

paulhauggis wrote: post #409
MartinCron wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors,…

"It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group." This isn't true. When my co-workers have gotten into political discussions that were completely against my beliefs, I could have easily gotten offended. But you know what? I don't, because I'm an adult. Some people are going to sa…

You sound very secure and confident with who you are. Oddly enough, not everyone is, of should be, exactly like you.

Re: "Lighten up"

#435

Post by xymostech »

antiterra wrote: post #293
InclinedPlane wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem here is that interpersonal relationships are not government by simple context free objective rules. Person A in Situation X can say and do things that are perfectly acceptable that would be deplorable and disgusting if Person B in Situation Y did precisely, exactly, identically the same thing. You can grab your lover's ass, but try that on a random stranger. Which makes telling people what they can a…

I don't think this is the core problem. Feedback is occurring, and the response isn't "Oh, I'm sorry. I'll avoid doing that in the future." It's "lighten up!" That translates roughly to: "what I was doing that bothered you is so important to me that I refuse to stop, so get over it." I think that is the core problem.

I think it's even more than that. It's not "It's so important to me" it's "this shouldn't be important to you, because it doesn't seem important to me."

Re: "Lighten up"

#436

Post by cellularmitosis »

jmadsen wrote: post #251
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Sorry, that's lame. I grew up in a small, all-white community where jokes about blacks were common and accepted. when I grew up and moved away, I learned how bad that was. so I stopped. I don't ever, ever slip up, because I don't think that way any more. "I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself."? No, you just THINK you are really trying.

I think there's a distinction which needs to be acknowledged here. Skirt-chasing is something which is appropriate in some situations, but not others, while being racist is wrong in all situations.

If someone grew up in a racist environment, the goal is for them to stop thinking that way, period.

If someone grew up in an environment where they mistakenly believed it was always appropriate to verbally acknowledge your sexual attraction to someone, the goal is simply for them to get better at recognizing situations in which they need to self-censor.

There is no shame in being sexually attracted to women, but verbally acknowledging it is inappropriate in some situations.

Re: "Lighten up"

#437

Post by hythloday »

daenz wrote: post #419
hythloday wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A man's opinion of what a sexist put-down looks like is about as relevant as what a civilian's opinion of what a battlefield looks like.

You can't have it both ways. You're favoring the opinion of one sex over another because of their experiences. In this example, you're favoring woman's opinion over man's opinion because she naturally has more experience with sexual harassment. That's like saying a man's opinion in the business world is more valuable than a woman's because he naturally has more experience with leadership and conflict. If I said the l…

But "leadership and conflict" aren't natural, essential experiences of being a man. I'm asserting that sexist put-downs are a natural and essential part of being a woman.

If you must have a male corollary, I think there's a case to be made that men suffer from success anxiety--that their self-worth is tied to material success--much more than women (I'm not saying this is "female privilege" or "sexism against men", just that it's something that men are evaluated on much more intensely than women). Would I favour a man's view of male success anxiety over a woman's? Yes, probably.

But things like "leadership" or "conflict" are at best loosely correlated with gender--that doesn't make men automatically experts on it any more than it makes all men CEOs or heads of state just because the majority of those positions are filled by men.

Re: "Lighten up"

#438

Post by tmeasday »

erichocean wrote: post #418
Jabbles wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

I don't disagree with anything you have to say, but a thought did enter my mind: At what point did we become okay with excluding sexuality from human lives, or a large portion of them -- the time we spend working? Sexuality is every bit as much a "human" endeavor as, say, eating -- and we don't (currently) say: never eat at work, work is for work only (despite the fact that food does separate people from each other,…

Yeah, one day it might be OK, but I think today we need to be a bit careful..

Re: "Lighten up"

#439

Post by MartinCron »

paulhauggis wrote: post #409
MartinCron wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors,…

"It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group." This isn't true. When my co-workers have gotten into political discussions that were completely against my beliefs, I could have easily gotten offended. But you know what? I don't, because I'm an adult. Some people are going to sa…

Also, the reason "people like me" bring up the minstrel shows, swastikas, and burning crosses is to try to give context that there are a handful of things that many people, not just "thin-skinned women" or "overly-sensitive PC whiners" find offensive.

I believe in your right to express yourself, but harassment in the workspace is not protected speech. be as un-PC as you want on your own time.

Re: "Lighten up"

#440

Post by [deleted] »

hythloday wrote: post #437
daenz wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have it both ways. You're favoring the opinion of one sex over another because of their experiences. In this example, you're favoring woman's opinion over man's opinion because she naturally has more experience with sexual harassment. That's like saying a man's opinion in the business world is more valuable than a woman's because he naturally has more experience with leadership and conflict. If I said the l…

But "leadership and conflict" aren't natural, essential experiences of being a man. I'm asserting that sexist put-downs are a natural and essential part of being a woman. If you must have a male corollary, I think there's a case to be made that men suffer from success anxiety--that their self-worth is tied to material success--much more than women (I'm not saying this is "female privilege" or "sexism against men", ju…

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