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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#111

Post by jamesaguilar »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

I imagine if the consequences of making comments like these were dire enough, you'd find a way. It would only take one or two times getting fired for sexual harassment for you to clean up your act. Being conscious of the issue is a start, but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to behave like a mature adult in an equal society.

BTW, you don't have a problem with posts like this, or if you do, you didn't state it clearly. From what I can tell, posts like this have a problem with you.

Re: "Lighten up"

#112

Post by crusso »

pingswept wrote: post #26
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here."

I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

Re: "Lighten up"

#113

Post by DanBC »

daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

Assume for a moment that you're right. Assume, even, that the original poster agrees with you.

Now, re-read the post. You'll see that the poster doesn't have a thin skin; they're just sharing something that happens all the time.

The blatant stuff is, perhaps, easier to deal with because you can let off steam and have a rant. It's the gradual drip drip drip of every day comments - comments that your colleagues don't get, and the only reason they don't get them is because they are male - that just wears you down.

UK Comedian Josie Long has a good talk about it here:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oXIZVLthw)

I don't get the idea that these are weak people, or oversensitive, or they have weak skins. I get the impression that they've just had enough.

(I hope you see that I've tried to engage your argument and not just attack you. Personally, I really dislike the idea of telling people that "jerks are out there and it'll take years to change them so sorry, deal with it.)

Re: "Lighten up"

#114

Post by ugh »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

I don't really understand why you have a problem with these kinds of posts, then. You seem to be keenly aware of the fact that you are the problem and that you have to work to better yourself.

Re: "Lighten up"

#115

Post by wilmoore »

jff wrote: post #41
crusso wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.

HR should also be on your side there too because, at least in my company, HR is almost entirely staffed by women. So they quite possibly have their own experiences with sexism in the workplace and won't simply dismiss the problem.

I love seeing a diversified HR department. Generally this means everyone gets a fair shake.

Re: "Lighten up"

#116

Post by daenz »

raganwald wrote: post #61
daenz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is what I said dismissive? I take her concern seriously, and I gave her my opinion of the best option for her health. I'm being a realist here, there is no "changing everyones behavior." There is only changing your perspective.

But there IS changing everyone's behaviour. In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable. Overt racism has become socially unacceptable. Two women got engaged at centre-ice in a hockey game, a bastion of blue-collar society. All these changes happened because people said, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

> In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable

Seeing the change in your lifetime does not mean the entire process occurred in your lifetime. How many lifetimes is it taking for women, gays, and black people to become treated as equals, and we're still not there. Like I said, it takes lifetimes.

I'm not saying don't fight discrimination. I'm saying she should consider her health. Unless she wants to be a full-time martyr and campaign for this cause, then by all means, she should give herself 1000%. But if she doesn't, she's going to need to focus on your health in the face of this alleged behavior, and that includes not letting herself get worked up to an unhealthy level if she can help it. But by all means, continue the fight.

Re: "Lighten up"

#117

Post by InclinedPlane »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

The core problem here is that interpersonal relationships are not government by simple context free objective rules.

Person A in Situation X can say and do things that are perfectly acceptable that would be deplorable and disgusting if Person B in Situation Y did precisely, exactly, identically the same thing. You can grab your lover's ass, but try that on a random stranger.

Which makes telling people what they can and can't do supremely difficult. There are no objective rules for acceptable human behavior, nor can there be. Which is why feedback is so important.

Re: "Lighten up"

#119

Post by msbarnett »

Tichy wrote: post #34

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…

> Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses?

In the workplace? Not if they want to keep their job.

Seriously, in most industries nobody would blink twice if someone was fired on the spot for saying that they were going to sit across from a woman wearing a low-cut dress so that they could ogle her breasts.

IT has, comparatively, incredibly low standards of professional behaviour.

Re: "Lighten up"

#120

Post by pippy »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Admittedly I did the exact same thing as you, right down to the same quote.

Most male dominated fields of work behave like this - it's a reflection of subtle rules society that we're taught at a young age. We can try to patch it over but it might cut deeper than just culture, it maybe simply inherently biological the behavior of men around a single female.

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