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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#401

Post by cooperq »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Wow a person of privilege (male) feels uncomfortable when being asked not to do something that harms a person of less privilege (female). How difficult that must be for you. I really feel your plight. Asshole.

Re: "Lighten up"

#402

Post by dihard »

How about .. embrace your femininity. The bigger the chip on our shoulder about being a chick in the workplace, the more we're told to "lighten up."

Plan the potluck - isn't it fun to plan things? Take the notes - aren't you super organized and taking notes anyway? If given a demeaning comment - sincerely and gracefully refute it the first time, replacing it with a comment about the quality of your work. And, seriously, stop wearing revealing clothes to work - have some respect and save that for your spouse!

This is not to diminish therealkatie's complaints, nor to say that every woman actually enjoys baking cookies, planning potlucks, or taking notes. I do, though, and I've never had a problem with respect.

Re: "Lighten up"

#403

Post by pingswept »

crusso wrote: post #388
pingswept wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. For the people on the other side of the joke, it's not fun. From what Katie Cunningham writes, it's so unbearable that she's on the verge of leaving the profession she loves. With that understanding of the situation, sexist jokes lose their humor, at least for me.

>I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. Where did I defend sexist humor? I think that Katie Cunningham is putting up with some nonsense and she should take direct action. My question to Katie was just regarding the line between humor and offense and how she drew a distinction? She apparently didn't get o…

I agree that there's no need for mischaracterization, but there is a need for people to jump in and say what they think. I'll try to explain why I thought you were defending sexist humor.

This is the line that made me think you were defending sexist humor: "I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions."

Maybe you meant non-sexist humor that erroneously came across as sexist?

Re: "Lighten up"

#404

Post by lhnn »

VMG wrote: post #25
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

Banter should be mutual. This extends to males as well. If your "witty remarks" aren't reciprocated, stop.

This is the key, and the most valuable comment in this entire thread. Just like making moves on people, the smartest tactic is to go as far as you feel like going, carefully, until it's not symmetrical.

The women I work with in IT have had incredibly adult jokes made about them and vice-versa, because it's known and comfortable. If it wasn't mutual, you should know to back off, because they aren't going to lighten up.

Re: "Lighten up"

#405

Post by Czarnian »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

- Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

It's none of your concern why a woman dresses the way she does. As long as she isn't violating company policy, she is under no obligation to justify her wardrobe to anyone else. And if she is violating company policy, that's between her and HR, not you.

Re: "Lighten up"

#406

Post by tomp »

djcapelis wrote: post #230
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

I find it hard to believe that you think women should have to dress differently so as not to attract a running commentary.

Maybe not should, but could?

I'm not saying that it's their fault, but there certainly are ways to prevent what they're experiencing. We men have to deal with another type of assault, physical assault. Most of my male friends were assaulted in one way or another (in clubs, on the street, ...) before the age of 20, in Slovenia. Yes, we could blame other people, but a matter of fact is that we are more likely targets than women, and it pays off to avoid situations that could result in physical violence.

Re: "Lighten up"

#407

Post by javascriptlol »

antiterra wrote: post #363
javascriptlol wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are painting these things as universal. If there were some rule about women and potlucks I'd care. As it is, there is not. I have never even seen a potluck in the workplace! There are much bigger, structural problems to worry about right now. It's like we're on a boat with a hole in the bottom and every interest group is complaining that their feet are getting wetter than all the others. We wouldn't have this pro…

It seems you're suggesting that working for a company in the technology industry is being imprisoned or that it's prohibitively (and increasingly?) difficult to start a small technology business. As far as I can tell, tech is still a growth industry, and the boats are floating higher, not sinking. Even if so, why is it irrelevant to bring up a specific reason that women might leave a company? If I was my own boss and…

You use sophistry. Punches to the face face will make a cancer patient worse. In fact, getting the flu may kill them. The poster is not a cancer patient; presumably, they are a reasonable independent person with some self esteem. So they are capable of learning resilience. We need to distinguish between small harms that ultimately do us good and large harms that are sending society on a destructive course.

Re: "Lighten up"

#408

Post by tomkarlo »

yelsgib wrote: post #374
tomkarlo wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for perpetuating stereotypes in the name of excusing unacceptable behavior. Many of these same comments could probably also be applied to stock traders and construction workers as well. While it's unfortunate that some people fail to develop appropriately and learn to interact in an appropriately professional manner in the workplace, I don't know if that means folks have to feel sorry for them any more than if…

I think of stock brokers/financial workers as particularly miserable people - you can be rich AND miserable! I don't know any construction workers, but it really doesn't seem like a happy job. It's not about excusing behavior, it's about talking about the reasons behind that behavior so that those reasons can be addressed properly. The proper way to address issues whose source is pain and suffering is compassion. Not…

Having worked in both finance and software, I don't think either group is particularly happier or more miserable than the other. Both jobs have tradeoffs. Neither is truly stressful in comparison to say, being a soldier, EMT or policeman. (I can't speak to construction - but it does have a high injury rate.)

We're not talking about grossly inappropriate behavior here. We're really talking about behavior that's sufficiently in the margins that an otherwise "okay guy" might do it because they just don't understand why it's problematic, or they don't realize they're doing it. (As opposed to really blatant sexual harassment or misogyny, which is still common in lots of other industries.) It seems to me that the issue with most of what the OP relates is simply rooted in ignorance and/or insensitivity, rather than any kind of suppressed suffering.

Re: "Lighten up"

#409

Post by paulhauggis »

MartinCron wrote: post #341
paulhauggis wrote: post #133

Have you ever worked in an office with all women? I did and the sexism and comments are worse because they know they can get away with it. Our world has become too politically correct. At one of my jobs, they brought all of the developers into a room and said that "something somebody said was offensive and we needed to watch our language". We're adults, not kids at school..but it sure doesn't feel like it because peo…

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors,…

"It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group."

This isn't true. When my co-workers have gotten into political discussions that were completely against my beliefs, I could have easily gotten offended.

But you know what? I don't, because I'm an adult. Some people are going to say things you may not like. Just ignore them.

"It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group."

Women mostly work in Nursing and as teachers. If I were to go into either of these fields, I still wouldn't whine to my superiors about something my co-worker said or how they made me feel bad.

"If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors, slide rules, and mocked your condescending whiny voice, would that not be offensive?"

No, I would laugh. You need to be proud of what you are. I'm confident enough to know that a little mockery won't hurt me.

Every company I have ever worked for has been so paranoid about sexual harassment and offending people I seriously doubt it happens as much as people would like us to believe.

"What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings?"

Why is it that in any conversation, the people that claim to be against discrimination bring up things like this?

I don't agree with what you posted, but we should have the freedom to express our opinions. I'm tired of people trying to legislate personal opinions away.

It's opinions like yours that allow special interest groups to get power in this country.

Re: "Lighten up"

#410

Post by crusso »

stcredzero wrote: post #98
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asym…

> But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding."

I really wonder at the need to mischaracterize what I said above. Nowhere did I mention picking on anyone or engaging in humor at the expense of my coworkers.

Maybe you didn't realize you were battling a straw man. But I'm explaining it to you now. You're bringing a lot of your own preconceptions and baggage to the sub-thread off my post here that didn't say what you imply it said. It's right up there, go re-read it.

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