Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

391–400 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#391

Post by jiggy2011 »

msbarnett wrote: post #387
jiggy2011 wrote: post #296

To be fair though, I've worked in places that were 70/80% female before and I was usually the first person they asked when they needed something heavy moved. Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

> Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc. Assuming that, because she's a woman, she'd be better suited to note-taking is the definition of sexism .

except in this instance it wasn't an assumption , it was a fairly obvious fact.

Re: "Lighten up"

#392

Post by hythloday »

daenz wrote: post #309
hythloday wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you recognise the difference between examined bias and unexamined bias?

A man's opinion of this situation is equally valid, since a man is equally influencing the situation. If this was a problem that occurred in a vacuum, away from men, then a man's opinion would have less weight. Are you disagreeing?

A man's opinion of what a sexist put-down looks like is about as relevant as what a civilian's opinion of what a battlefield looks like.

Re: "Lighten up"

#393

Post by BenOfTomorrow »

bh42222 wrote: post #50
tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; Holly horror story! Sadly I am not surprised to hear this, because I've heard many similar stories. And yet out of the very large number of male friends in the industry I have, including myself, none of us have ever or would ever do anything like that. The paradox here is answered by the fact that a tiny share of creeps will always be found…

While you are correct in this instance, the original article is complaining about subtle inequalities that go unnoticed or tolerated by a much larger portion of the industry than just the "creeps".

And the existence of that behavior is an obstacle to increasing the share of women in the industry.

Re: "Lighten up"

#394

Post by tomp »

Swizec wrote: post #194
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated. That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

There's much more to this... A totally attractive guy (model-like) that emanates low self-confidence (shyness, bad posture, ...) could still have his comments perceived in a negative way (i.e. as being sexist, not compliments). So, I believe that we tend to judge this from the perspective of the perceived intent of the person making the comments. A self confident gut -> he's probably just being sincere -> cure. A not-self-confident guy -> he's trying to get something from her -> looser. (Probably applies with the sex roles reversed, but I have no actual experience to lean on).

At the workplace, the label looser is just switched for the label creepy/sexist.

Re: "Lighten up"

#395

Post by theorique »

yelsgib wrote: post #368
theorique wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell. If you're experiencing this pushback from women in the profession as 'man hate' that's certainly your right. I view it more as listening to a professional colleague telling a story from her perspective. I'm not experiencing it as hate, more as hearing from a woman…

Good questions! Sure, the guy's actions are unprofessional (though I hate the term), and discouraging. I wouldn't say creepy. I really hate the term "creepy" because probably (and yeah, here I'm speculating) the guy has been called a creep his whole life. Probably he's even creepy. But shouldn't we feel sorry for such a person? (United States) society has a really bad habit of locating blame on male citizens and not…

I hear that. I think it's a positive step to have compassion for both sides in this workplace disagreement. And I sure don't mean to paint low-cut-shirt-comment-guy (LCSCG) as irredeemably evil.

The reality is, in the situation under immediate discussion he's in the role of the victimizer and he's crossed the lines in the workplace. Is what he did illegal or even fireable? No to the first, and probably not to the second. Does it mean he should never be allowed to work in his field again? Hardly.

But is it reasonable for him to be required have a talk with HR about what's 'OK' and what's 'not OK' when dealing with colleagues? I think so. Gaining a better understanding of the way your communication lands on people is a very important step in maturity and growth. Better he should learn such a thing later, in the workplace, rather than not at all.

And you're right - maybe he has a past history that drives him to behave the way he did / does. Perhaps earlier in his life LCSCG was victimized too. Perhaps he has anger or resentment against the popular girls who laughed at him or the football players who dropped his books in the mud and pushed his face in it. I don't know. None of us do.

Maybe LCSCG, and others in similar situation, can get some kind of help - coaching or therapy or socialization - that helps him interact with others in a way that's more resourceful. I think that's a result that almost anyone would support.

Re: "Lighten up"

#396

Post by MartinCron »

mhartl wrote: post #346
MartinCron wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it could be group-think and thought police, or it could be reasonable people finding a consensus . In media studies there's the idea of the circle of consensus (everyone agrees with the notion that slavery and rape and child abuse are bad) and outside of that is the area of legitimate controversy. ("Does Keynesian economics actually work?" "should states mandate that people wear motorcycle helmets?" whatever).…

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... [Should I] go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? Do you think that potentially firing someone for making such a comment is part of a reasonable consensus? Or is it something about which reasonable people can disagree?

I think the consensus is that the comment is not appropriate for a professional context.

As far as firing goes? I personally wouldn't fire someone for the first bullshit sexist remark, but I would make it perfectly clear that the next bullshit sexist comment would be the last one. I am not sure where the reasonable consensus is around that issue. I personally care more about the victim than the perpetrator.

Re: "Lighten up"

#397

Post by georgieporgie »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

So, I'm not going to agree or disagree with you, since I don't really know exactly what you're saying.

I will say this, though: there is professional attire for women. Generally speaking, this doesn't involve form-hugging clothing. A fitted women's dress shirt is not form-hugging, by the way.

Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts. I've discussed this with female friends whom I've respected and liked strictly as friends. If exposed to low-cut tops, I find my eyes darting to them, particularly when I'm distracted or concentrating on some thought. If I were in a position where a well-endowed female coworker were wearing very snug or revealing clothing, I'm honestly not sure how I would handle the situation.

Re: "Lighten up"

#398

Post by eropple »

yelsgib wrote: post #385
beedogs wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that anyone who makes misogynist remarks at work has some sort of "mental issue", and that because of this we should just let it slide, or at least be sympathetic? Give me a fucking break. Calling out negative behavior tends to be very effective.

No. I am not saying that. I'm saying that in this particular case a lot of the "negative behavior" stems from extreme internal pressures.

It's not the author's job to serve as a target for those negative behaviors. The responsibility lies with those whose behavior is unacceptable to find a way to operate, for lack of a better phrase, within expected parameters.

Re: "Lighten up"

#399

Post by drhayes9 »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #389
drhayes9 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Because they work in an industry that is primarily based on looks. Just like it's "okay" to stare at fashion models, it's "okay" to stare at waitresses at Hooters. Seeing as you don't work at Hooters (I'm guessing, ( ; ) then this doesn't apply here. > In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the only person on earth, would you dress the same way you do now? I…

This might be a ludicrous way to approach it, but would we be having this same conversation if a lesbian had made the comment, or better yet, a gay man to another man? I think it's still obviously inappropriate sexual harassment but it doesn't feel immediately "sexist" to me in the same way. Sexism is about discrimination or prejudice based on gender, and I think we too quickly view anything inappropriate from one ge…

Good point; I think we would be having this conversation.

We would not call it sexism, as that's reserved for unwanted attention between the sexes, usually male-to-female, but sometimes reversed... but it would still be just as wrong.

I think we don't have more cases like that because LGTM people are in a minority, but that doesn't mean that an LGTM person can't make unwelcome advances upon another person; why would it? Of course they can.

Can you name something inappropriate from one gender to another that isn't sexist? Consensual sex with your wife is appropriate. Getting slapped on the ass by your SO is appropriate. Getting fondled at a concert by a member of the opposite sex..? Did you want that to happen? You did? Great! Appropriate. You didn't? Inappropriate. Clean and simple.

What else do you feel is sexual harassment but not sexist? Where is your line?

Re: "Lighten up"

#400

Post by ivankirigin »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

If you comment on a woman's neckline at work, you definitely have a problem and should go out of your way to change your behavior and thinking.
Post reply on HN