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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#381

Post by cperciva »

sukuriant wrote: post #305
yelsgib wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

You're getting quite a bit of flak for this. You got a sucky boss? I rather like my co-workers, and potlucks are just one method of team-building/friendship making that can be had at work. No, work buddies should never be your only friends, but to have a pleasant time around co-workers, and to have team-building events such as those? There's nothing wrong with that; and, I would argue it helps to create a condusive a…

There's a difference between friends and forced friends. There are lots of FreeBSD developers I'd be happy to invite over for dinner if they were in town, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy if someone told me that I had to invite them over for dinner.

My social life is just fine, thanks. I don't need a boss telling me who my friends should be.

Re: "Lighten up"

#382

Post by drhayes9 »

tomp wrote: post #375
drhayes9 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Yes, Virginia, this is sexist. Holy hell, is it sexist. You are characterizing a woman's behavior in terms of how it makes you, as a man, feel. There are many reasons that a human might dress a particular way, but by characterizing it as a gender-based, "she wore that to make me do this" kind of transaction you have incor…

You're mentioning behaviour that is inappropriate overall (i.e. with strangers/acquaintances), but this post was more about the behaviour that is inappropriate only at the workplace (at least I read it this way). Unless you're saying that the sets of inappropriate behaviours are equal, in which case I wholeheartedly agree. Personally, I would enjoy getting compliments about my ass. Being grabbed/honked at, not so muc…

It totally depends on the compliment. If someone complimented me on my crotch ("Nice package, man! You're really filling it out nicely there!")... then, no. ( =

Otherwise, though, yeah, I like getting compliments about my hair, eyes, whatever, sure. But commenting about sexual characteristics, specifically, is a line that one shouldn't cross. Just like complimenting someone every single day for weeks on end is another line.

If the other person indicates that the compliments are welcome, then you're probably good. If they give no indication in any way, then they're probably not welcome.

Besides, a single compliment isn't the issue: a whole system of behaviors taken across a wide sample size of more than just one man, is.

And I'm not sure what your first paragraph means. 'Splain? ( =

Re: "Lighten up"

#383

Post by ryanwaggoner »

Cushman wrote: post #371
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Of course I'm not sure . But when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Is it for comfort? Is it because they couldn't afford the other 30% of the shirt? Or is it because that's proven to be very effective at gaining male attention? I wore them for me, not for anyone else. This makes no sense. In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the on…

> Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Seriously, stop right there. Read what you just wrote. You're comparing a professional developer who chose to dress comfortably to women chosen for sex appeal by a restaurant which is only a step away from a strip club. There is something seriously wrong with the way you are approaching this issue. To answer your last question-- I'm a straight guy, and no, I w…

You're comparing a professional developer who chose to dress comfortably to women chosen for sex appeal by a restaurant which is only a step away from a strip club.

You're arguing a straw man. I didn't say anything remotely close to that; my point was just that wearing low-cut tops and dressing for sex appeal are usually correlated.

I'm a straight guy, and no, I wouldn't find it sexually arousing if a co-worker came in to work topless.

Can you expand on this a little? It makes sense if the person was someone you didn't find attractive at all, but what if you did find that person attractive in normal work dress? Would you seriously not be aroused if they came into work topless? Or do you magically turn off your sense of attraction at work? I'm not sure I believe you, but even if that's true, it's clearly not for the vast majority of male society. Hence the plethora of advertising and marketing aimed at men that features scantily-clad attractive women.

Finally, it's obviously completely inappropriate to make those comments at work. But I don't think it's sexist.

Re: "Lighten up"

#384

Post by BenOfTomorrow »

Swizec wrote: post #194
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated. That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

If it's in an wildly inappropriate context, her perception of you can switch from "like" to "dislike" quickly.

It's a factor, but lots of women have stories about attractive creeps.

Re: "Lighten up"

#385

Post by yelsgib »

beedogs wrote: post #376
yelsgib wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if everyone was just totally psychologically normal? I bet everyone can just fix everything that's wrong with themselves. Everyone has a surplus of love in their life available to help them overcome their problems. Men are not puppies, asshole.

So you're saying that anyone who makes misogynist remarks at work has some sort of "mental issue", and that because of this we should just let it slide, or at least be sympathetic? Give me a fucking break. Calling out negative behavior tends to be very effective.

No. I am not saying that.

I'm saying that in this particular case a lot of the "negative behavior" stems from extreme internal pressures.

Re: "Lighten up"

#386

Post by georgieporgie »

tomp wrote: post #365
Jabbles wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a…

If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it

As a man who values fitness, I would be really freaked out if you, as a coworker, complimented my biceps.

If you merely asked about fitness, it would be fine. Commenting on my appearance (beyond, "hey, you have a piece of toilet paper stuck to your face") isn't what I consider appropriate to the workplace.

Re: "Lighten up"

#387

Post by msbarnett »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #296

To be fair though, I've worked in places that were 70/80% female before and I was usually the first person they asked when they needed something heavy moved. Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

> Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

Assuming that, because she's a woman, she'd be better suited to note-taking is the definition of sexism.

Re: "Lighten up"

#388

Post by crusso »

pingswept wrote: post #177
crusso wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. For the people on the other side of the joke, it's not fun. From what Katie Cunningham writes, it's so unbearable that she's on the verge of leaving the profession she loves. With that understanding of the situation, sexist jokes lose their humor, at least for me.

>I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you.

Where did I defend sexist humor?

I think that Katie Cunningham is putting up with some nonsense and she should take direct action.

My question to Katie was just regarding the line between humor and offense and how she drew a distinction?

She apparently didn't get offended and answered me quite frankly. There's really no need for you to jump in and mischaracterize my position.

Lots of white knights in this thread that she doesn't really seem to need to take care of her.

Re: "Lighten up"

#389

Post by ryanwaggoner »

drhayes9 wrote: post #372
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Of course I'm not sure . But when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Is it for comfort? Is it because they couldn't afford the other 30% of the shirt? Or is it because that's proven to be very effective at gaining male attention? I wore them for me, not for anyone else. This makes no sense. In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the on…

> Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Because they work in an industry that is primarily based on looks. Just like it's "okay" to stare at fashion models, it's "okay" to stare at waitresses at Hooters. Seeing as you don't work at Hooters (I'm guessing, ( ; ) then this doesn't apply here. > In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the only person on earth, would you dress the same way you do now? I…

This might be a ludicrous way to approach it, but would we be having this same conversation if a lesbian had made the comment, or better yet, a gay man to another man? I think it's still obviously inappropriate sexual harassment but it doesn't feel immediately "sexist" to me in the same way. Sexism is about discrimination or prejudice based on gender, and I think we too quickly view anything inappropriate from one gender to the other as being "sexist".

Re: "Lighten up"

#390

Post by eropple »

yelsgib wrote: post #260
mindstab wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad. Programing or any place in the world isn't some special place for poorly socialized men to hang out and ... what... hide? You know what would be good? Learning social rules and improving. Them maybe his life wouldn't suck and he could get a date. And you know what would help that? Being forced into social situations with women and being slapped when he steps out of line. If you have a puppy and it pees on th…

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if everyone was just totally psychologically normal? I bet everyone can just fix everything that's wrong with themselves. Everyone has a surplus of love in their life available to help them overcome their problems. Men are not puppies, asshole.

Most of the time, there are many shades of gray on an issue. To my mind, this is not one. At my employer, our (not small) engineering department is probably around 10% female. I'm trying to think of anyone in the engineering department that would be so catastrophically unaware as to think comments like that to a female co-worker would be even remotely acceptable. I literally-literally can't fathom it, and I can't even conceive of working with such a person.

You're right: men are not puppies. They're human beings who are capable of owning their actions and changing their behavior if it is unacceptable. I would also say that someone so fundamentally damaged as to be unable to restrain sexist or racist behaviors is not a valuable employee regardless of technical skill or contribution--but unable is not the same thing as unwilling, and I have a hunch that those who are actually "unable" are few.

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