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Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

electrek.co

121–130 of 197 posts

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#121
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cruise was finally hit with blame over someone's death after blocking in an ambulance. I'm not sure they're such a good example of autonomous driving done right. As for instantaneous death, a collision between a person an automobile at 25 mph is enough to do serious damage to the person. What you've described is autonomous driving at a walking pace, and somehow that doesn't sound so appealing.

Cruise says the ambulance left as soon as the person was loaded and the pedestrian was hit by a human driven car so hard to put 100% of the blame on Cruise. https://ktla.com/news/california/company-refutes-claim-that-...

Assuming Cruise is being truthful, sure. But that's like the fourth attempt that Cruise has made to shift the blame. First it was "there was room", then it was "but the police were also blocking the ambulance in" – ignoring that police on official business generally have reason to park haphazardly. Then it was "only one Cruise vehicle was legitimately stuck, the other moved ASAP". But so far they've shared their video with one local news outlet, but are prohibiting the video from being disclosed publicly (hmm).

Where one party is motivated by profit and the other is not, I'm inclined to believe the latter. Having seen Cruise vehicles get wedged in traffic first hand I'm inclined to believe the fire department.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#122
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the position is malleable. The ideal end game would be a constrained system. So I mean if you put the cars on rails and gave them a dedicated space to run in, which would solve most of the determinism problems that'd be good. And you could possibly stuck a few of them together to increase overall capacity and efficiency too. We might then have a solution that's possible to execute FSD reliably on.

So... trains?

Aliens.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#123
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could argue that it isn't life-critical software because it requires active driver monitoring. What makes it different from lane-keeping assist in other vehicles? Or bog-standard cruise control? The fact that it attempts to do more things does not necessarily make it more dangerous. Your cruise control can drive you into a truck or off the road, but we accept that it is the driver's responsibility to not…

> because it requires active driver monitoring. Yet it doesn't disengage when you take your hands off the wheel > What makes it different from lane-keeping assist in other vehicles? lane assist, assists you in keeping in the lane. It doesn't pretend to be able to drive for you. It also, as far as I can see, doesn't attempt to fling you into cars you're overtaking. (unless you don't use your indicators....) > bog-stan…

> Yet it doesn't disengage when you take your hands off the wheel

Well you don't want it to immediately disengage, which would be insanely dangerous, but it knows if your hands are on the wheel. It will progressively alert you more prominently if it hasn't felt wheel torque from your hands. It will then begin beeping loudly and stop and lock you out from using Autopilot. It also knows whether you are looking at the road from an internal camera and will beep if you are looking at your phone, watch, or the car's screen. This system works quite well.

> lane assist, assists you in keeping in the lane. It doesn't pretend to be able to drive for you. It also, as far as I can see, doesn't attempt to fling you into cars you're overtaking. (unless you don't use your indicators....)

"Pretending to drive for you" is meaningless. It's a feature that takes over driving functions that requires active supervision and that if you do not pay attention can cause a crash. The conditions of how it might cause that crash are not particularly important conceptually. What matters is that there is an expectation you pay attention or you might crash. The primary difference is cruise control is worse at driving.

> Yes, because they have been told in no uncertain terms that if you obliterate someone in your car, its your fault and you're going to jail. More over, you were the one driving, so its down to you to not do it. Tesla are shipping untested systems and telling you, as an untrained roboticist supervisor: "don't worry, its safe, it drives it's self!" give you the impression that you don't really need to pay that much attention.

This is also the case with FSD. You're told its your fault. You're told it's your responsibility. They do not say "don't worry it drives itself" or give you the impression that you don't really need to pay that much attention. In fact it says the following, among other things you must explicitly accept, enable, and agree to:

> Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention to the road. Do not become complacent. When FSD is enabled your Model 3 will make lane changes off highway, select forks to follow your navigation route, navigate around other vehicles and objects, and make left and right turns. Use FSD in limited Beta only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, especially around blind corners, crossing intersections, and in narrow driving situations. Cabin Camera is used to detect driver attentiveness while FSD Beta is in-use to provide you with audible alerts, reminding you to keep your eyes on the road.

> I will not endorse a barely credible level 2 system who's QA system involves YOLO deploying shit to unqualified customers.

I'm not looking for your endorsement, I was trying to explain why the system is legal and probably less dangerous than you think. Also obviously they QA it before it goes out to "unqualified" customers.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#124
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting that AI driving is impossible? Seems like it'll be impossible for Tesla. It's less clear for others though, as some of them (Mercedes?) seem to be taking a more responsible development approach.

Looking at Mercedes is foolish IMO. There's no reason to think they have any expertise in this domain. They have some press releases but very little technology to show for themselves. Cruise and Waymo are the other major players here.

Are you aware that Mercedes has L3 (in limited circumstances) rolled out already?

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#125

It still blows my mind that so many people are okay with beta testing software that controls a several-tonne metal box on wheels moving at 100km/h+ on shared roadways.

Ok, how is this different than, say, the lane assist in a Kia? It fails often (in particular when you're not on a highway) so you have to remain alert.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea that the ability to use both hands to eat chicken nuggets while operating a motor vehicle at speed is so inherently and universally valuable that a person couldn’t possibly believe otherwise.

One could confidently put the makeup on without being annoyingly interrupted every couple of hundreds meters by having to drive up to the next red light!

We must endeavor to enjoy the Pacific Coast Highway as God intended: while perfecting my smash attack timing with Lucario at 65mph

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#127
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See now you're getting to the point but the point is that public transport is broken so we're patching it with cars. Perhaps we should be fixing that instead?

This “we” you speak of is non-existent. It’s about individuals taking actions to fix the injustices and errors they see in the system. For all his faults Elon Musk does not sit on the sidelines. What you see as a transgression by him is nonetheless action, and it will not be fixed until you, or some other individual brings it upon themselves to fix it.

Say what you will about ISIS but they do not sit on the sidelines.

This absurdist comparison isn't to say Musk is as bad as ISIS, but rather action shouldn't be confused with helping.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They specifically said test track. Once it's proven then put it on the roads. But in it's current state it should be severely restricted. They may need training data but then they can pay for it or pay to construct suitable tests

It's already on the road driving millions of miles. Someone should just count how many accidents it has had, and compare to how many are expected given the number of miles driven under each driving condition. If FSD has more accidents then ban it.

Sure this will go fine since it's not like we have a track record of people dying in Teslas, with Tesla taking zero accountability, and withholding the crash data from open scrutiny.

This experiment is sure to be unbiased.

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#129
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ride Cruise daily– I think it's entirely a scoping problem and what they decide to finalize as "FSD". From my exp autonomous driving seems entirely plausible within large cities at slower speeds that don't instantly kill you or others, and outside that just as good a lane assist + cruise control as you can get– the rest is branding FSD and walking back a claim or two around it. It all seems very malleable.

Of course the position is malleable. The ideal end game would be a constrained system. So I mean if you put the cars on rails and gave them a dedicated space to run in, which would solve most of the determinism problems that'd be good. And you could possibly stuck a few of them together to increase overall capacity and efficiency too. We might then have a solution that's possible to execute FSD reliably on.

What's this about automated cars on rails?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

Re: Tesla FSD Beta tried to kill me last night

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Self driving cars are not important other than for a few exec ego This is where you really go off the rails. You can't possibly believe this.

Why not? Public mass transit is far more efficient. The push for cars keeps car owners (in the corp and profit sense) alive. Only. Add in the pretend notion that cars equal freedom and it’s just a cycle of energy wasting nonsense. If we (tech fans) really wanted to help alleviate the problems roads have (traffic, accidents, etc) - public mass transit is the way to go. But I guess .. where’s the immediate hype-based p…

Add in the pretend notion that cars equal freedom and it’s just a cycle of energy wasting nonsense.

It is freedom. Life is "energy wasting" too, but don't let that get in the way of ideological virtue-signaling...

Those working in the mass transit industry call passengers "cattle" for a reason.

Roads may have problems but the alternative you're proposing is far worse.

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