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Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

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Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#61

Post by BrandoElFollito »

iancmceachern wrote: post #54
vasco wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hero talk is really cringy. Other than that, it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us to find it barbaric that we used to expose ourselves to factors like "trembling hands" or other such nonsense inside our guts.

I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons y…

> so let's make autonomous killing robots.

I think that this is not ethics or something that stops us from doing that, but rather the poor state of robotics.

The second we can, we will have autonomous killing robots à la Terminator (but better because they are not really optimal by looking like us)

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#63

Post by satvikpendem »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #61
iancmceachern wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons y…

> so let's make autonomous killing robots. I think that this is not ethics or something that stops us from doing that, but rather the poor state of robotics. The second we can, we will have autonomous killing robots à la Terminator (but better because they are not really optimal by looking like us)

I agree. Ethics haven't stopped weapons manufacturers from making increasingly deadly weapons, so I doubt it'd stop when the tech for killer robots is possible.

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#64

Post by iancmceachern »

robotresearcher wrote: post #48
iancmceachern wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Da Vinci is famously not better. There isn't a single study showing its better. It's also not less expensive, and doesn't reduce staffing needs in the OR. What is it? A marketing tool. Surgery centers and hospitals can drive increases in patients and patient throughput, improving their bottom line. It's marketing and throughout. They have a classic razor razor blade model. The surgical instrument are proprietary…

> Da Vinci is famously not better. Not better than surgeons with competing devices, or not better than surgeons without these tools?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4941968/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/robotic-surgery...

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#65

Post by robotresearcher »

iancmceachern wrote: post #35
richk449 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, amazing, not perfect. If DaVinci hadn’t developed the robot, would more people be able to afford health care?

Yes. Da Vinci is famously not better. There isn't a single study showing its better. It's also not less expensive, and doesn't reduce staffing needs in the OR. What is it? A marketing tool. Surgery centers and hospitals can drive increases in patients and patient throughput, improving their bottom line. It's marketing and throughout. They have a classic razor razor blade model. The surgical instrument are proprietary…

> There isn't a single study showing its better.

The link you provide below says

"When it comes to prostatectomies, urologists have found the outcomes for da Vinci robotic surgery to be much better than for laparoscopic surgery and use this method in more than 90% of these procedures [...] Robotic surgery also appears to provide clinical benefits for some, but not all, types of head and neck surgery."

It also reports negative value overall for gynecological surgeries.

The evidence you provided suggests it's better for some things and not others, which seems like the expected case.

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#66

Post by vasco »

iancmceachern wrote: post #54
vasco wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hero talk is really cringy. Other than that, it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us to find it barbaric that we used to expose ourselves to factors like "trembling hands" or other such nonsense inside our guts.

I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons y…

They aren't heroes in my opinion. A doctor would have a hero moment if they were in the middle of their regular life and someone has a piano fall on their head and they perform some MacGyver-esque surgery and save their lives.

If you clock in at your schedule time, go through your motions, clock out, what you're doing isn't heroing, you're doing your job. This isn't any sort of attack whatsoever on the profession, I have lots of respect for them, but I know plenty of surgeons and they'd all cringe at this hero talk.

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#67

Post by dredmorbius »

jwilk wrote: post #47
bionhoward wrote: post #14

One time in med school we had a lecture by the da Vinci surgeon guy, and of course I had to stick my hand up. “Will there ever come a time when the human hand cannot keep up with the instrument?” The whole room (200 people) laughed out loud, and the surgeon said, “No.”

What do you mean by "cannot keep up with the instrument"?

John Henry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore)>

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#68

Post by pav345678 »

iancmceachern wrote: post #64
robotresearcher wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Da Vinci is famously not better. Not better than surgeons with competing devices, or not better than surgeons without these tools?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4941968/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/robotic-surgery...

For the kidney surgery seems to be significantly better then non robotic

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9741158/

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#69

Post by iancmceachern »

satvikpendem wrote: post #63
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so let's make autonomous killing robots. I think that this is not ethics or something that stops us from doing that, but rather the poor state of robotics. The second we can, we will have autonomous killing robots à la Terminator (but better because they are not really optimal by looking like us)

I agree. Ethics haven't stopped weapons manufacturers from making increasingly deadly weapons, so I doubt it'd stop when the tech for killer robots is possible.

Yes they have (source - Geneva Convention and our subsequent following of it)

Re: Da Vinci robot surgeon removes inoperable tumor, saving patient’s life

#70

Post by iancmceachern »

vasco wrote: post #66
iancmceachern wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons y…

They aren't heroes in my opinion. A doctor would have a hero moment if they were in the middle of their regular life and someone has a piano fall on their head and they perform some MacGyver-esque surgery and save their lives. If you clock in at your schedule time, go through your motions, clock out, what you're doing isn't heroing, you're doing your job. This isn't any sort of attack whatsoever on the profession, I…

From what I've gathered, this was no ordinary day in the OR. Based on my experience with complex, unusual and otherwise difficult surgical procedures, your piano MacGyver situation isn't far off from what's going on in the OR in these kinds of cases.

This was no run of the mill lap choli or gall bladder removal.

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