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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#231

Post by irahul »

LaGrange wrote: post #80
huckfinnaafb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters. The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I…

> The proper expression is "I was horrified and angered by it,"

I was horrified and angered by it, and I know very well that assholes who show their bare butt pictures in interviews are incorrigible bastards, and if I happen to meet one, I am afraid I won't be able to contain myself(not too sure I would want to), so it was for the best I wasn't around.

Re: "Lighten up"

#232

Post by yelsgib »

flatline wrote: post #183
yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

I agree that the guy is probably suffering from his own insecurities, but the bottom line is that he allowed his issues to place him in a situation of antagonizing a co-worker, probably without any repercussions, which speaks to a general climate of discrimination against women in the workplace. Still, some of your other points are interesting and I feel are valid in a larger context. Zen monasteries in Japan were se…

My point is that there is no "bottom line."

Your analogy to a Zen monastery is a good one. For a lot of men (myself included), programming/chess/mathematics/etc. is an ESCAPE from women. I feel like what has happened in the past 10 years (note I'm not saying this is "wrong" - just that it's what happened) is that these monasteries have been invaded by women and that men have been acting very awkwardly.

Here's the real issue, I think - these men are acting AWKWARDLY. They are dealing with their emotions poorly. They are not good at dealing with their emotions, especially towards women. But when did they ever say that they were? Did we stop to think whether this is the reason that they went into a profession which (for a long time) was almost 100% male? To not have to deal with women and their emotions towards women? Do you think that a man who has trouble interacting with women in a relaxed social setting will be able to deal with them well in a professional setting?

The real pain for me is that this awkwardness is being recast as evil, sexism, etc. There's a lot of hate directed towards it, whereas what it needs (paradoxically) is love.

Re: "Lighten up"

#233

Post by j_baker »

yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

What makes you think Jeffrey Dahmer was a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Where's the compassion for him?

Re: "Lighten up"

#234

Post by jiggy2011 »

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

What the hell? How on earth did that happen, I really can't imagine why anyone would think that doing this could possibly have a positive income without having drunk a minimum of 5 beers.

Re: "Lighten up"

#235

Post by Jabbles »

hythloday wrote: post #228
Jabbles wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.

I hope that my criticism helps.

I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".

Re: "Lighten up"

#236

Post by mhartl »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #191
mhartl wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.

How do you know you lack sufficient power to effect change if you don't try?

I think threatening to fire men for commenting on women's dresses counts as trying.

Re: "Lighten up"

#237

Post by DanBC »

daenz wrote: post #229
InclinedPlane wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?

> Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Sure you would, buddy. Just like you're out there beating up the people who are oppressing the original poster, like fucking batman. > Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"? Yeah, I would. Because if you have any foresig…

"Schindler's List" would have made a lousy movie if he just told people to "Hang in There".

Re: "Lighten up"

#238

Post by delinka »

I agree this is a problem. But it's not one-sided.

I work (part time, not IT) in an environment where it's perfectly OK to generalize and joke about how men are assholes or idiots. I'm no writer, and I'm not about to attempt writing a post about the situation. I've been around enough that I can shrug it off at the end of the day, but in the moment it's beyond annoying and approaching degrading.

Re: "Lighten up"

#239

Post by scarmig »

What a trainwreck of a comments section.

If your immediate knee-jerk response is to try to point out why it's her fault without reflecting on her points, you're part of the problem.

Re: "Lighten up"

#240

Post by mhartl »

Jabbles wrote: post #202
mhartl wrote: post #93

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't…

Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem. You are a horrible person.

Counseling someone to accept a situation is not the same as endorsing it. And acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. Indeed, the OP's decision to leave the tech industry is an implicit acknowledgment of her acceptance. That's a rational decision. Posting a whiny (albeit well-written) essay about it isn't—at least, it's irrational if she wrote it to help solve the problem. If she was simply venting, and attempting to garner attention and sympathy, then the post served its purpose well.
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