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Paul Graham has lost the plot

mishandrob.com

261–270 of 302 posts

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because... Mark my words closely... When you steal my car, you deprive me of my car. When you take a picture of my picture of a lamborghini, you deprive me of nothing except for the artificial right to charge you for the right to take a picture of my picture of a car. The moral consequences differ because the consequences differ.

If you are in the market of selling pictures of cars and you take a rare (in fact, entirely unique) photograph of a car, then someone else takes a picture of your picture and sets up shop next door to give them away for free, they have deprived you of your ability to earn money from distributing that which you invested in the creation of. Just like diluting your equity in a company, they have not taken your physical…

Or let's say that I am the brother of El Presidente, and I run the state monopoly on cigars, and farmers grow tobacco and sell cigars directly to tourists, they re depriving me of the value of my mnopoly.

But they aren't depriving me of my tobacco. The two are different, which is why the morality of the two are different. Nobody denies that being able to get the police to enforce a monopoly has value, but it's not the same kind of value as the ability to enjoy smething for its intrnsic value to the owner.

Different kinds of value, therefore different kinds of morality. I'd say that the right to monopolize bits has nothing to do with the bits and everything to do with taxation or rent-seeking.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#262
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you build good software that does what it's supposed to, there's no need for service. There may be need for additional software to solve a new problem and in that sense, you provide a service. But I certainly don't want software that I need to keep going back to the vendor for fixes for or new documentation or for training on how to use it. I think that's very much the wrong way to do software, despite your emphat…

You are a fine demagogue. You recognize exactly what I meant. > There may be need for additional software to solve a new problem and in that sense, you provide a service. And then assume I meant something else. > But I certainly don't want software that I need to keep going back to the vendor for fixes for or new documentation or for training on how to use it. Shame on you, sir. > I think that's very much the wrong w…

That's a shame - I was fond of the HTML pun. And I was legitimately unsure what you meant by your definition of service. Apologies if hedging my bet there irked you. I'm not a freelance/contractor/consultant and have no desire to be one, so the presumption that that's the only proper model for software development is one I don't take as a given.

For what it's worth, I don't agree you should be downvoted. But you also have made it hard to have an actual discussion by casting everything as right/wrong type of situation and then clearly dictating what is right or wrong. That really makes it hard to have a civilized discussion because there's no seeking of understanding, just refutation.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#263

The author, and the content industry in general, are misunderstanding basic economics: Just because there is a cost to produce something does not mean that it has market value . pg was right in pointing out that the content industry is built on the economics of scarcity, and that this scarcity no longer exists. You could charge someone to see a movie in a theatre when doing so was the only way to see the movie. You c…

Water is free but it is still illegal to shoplift bottled water from the 7/11. Just like it is illegal to infringe copyright by redistributing songs without permission. And for the same reason.

This is exactly the same flawed analogy, in slightly different dress, used in the "you wouldn't download a car" argument.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What he's talking about is the fact that it might > take an artist over a month to create a two-and- > a-half-minute song. I covered that music innovation happens without requiring us to relinquish our rights in my original post. But let's expand, because I can raise Jade Ewen now. The only musicians who benefit from copyright in a significant way are a few that get hand-picked as front-men by the gansters who run…

The claim in the article isn't that nobody would write and perform music without copyright, but that there would be less of it, and that it would be of lower quality. My claim is that labels, publishers, and music producers will exploit artists if copyright does not exist. I'm not trying to defend the business model of big music labels, so the example of Jade Ewen is neither here nor there. I'm defending the idea of…

    > The claim in the article isn't that nobody would
    > write and perform music without copyright, but that
    > there would be less of it, and that it would be of
    > lower quality. 
That's an arbitrary claim. There's no evidence of it. You can't produce evidence because we don't know what the opportunity cost of all this enforcement is.

    > Authors and game designers
There's plenty of opportunities for them too. Read _Against Intellectual Monopoly_ by Boldrin/Levine from page 22. The section ends, "SO we can realistically conclude that if J K Rowling were forced to publish her book without the benefit of copyright, she might reasonably expect to sell the book to a publishiing house for several million dollars - or more. This is certainly quite a bit less money than she earns under the current copyright regime. But it seems likely, given her previous occupation as a part-time French teacher, that it would still give her adequate incentive to produce her great works of literature".

    > so the only way they can make money is by
    > actually selling copies of their work, which
    > requires intellectual property rights
That's not correct, and the above chapter covers this too. Cliff's notes: where there is no IP, there's a rush when something is released to it into print and on the market. Creators can sell the rights to first release for a fortune. The US government made a fortune on the official 9-11 report by auctioning off first-access rights along these lines.

People can also make money by publishing something, and then getting a job teaching (or some other expert capacity) in the field.

    > The idea that copyright only benefits the
    > select few in the music industry isn't true,
    > either. Labels often get caught plagiarizing songs
    > that were written by small artists and handing them
    > to big-name artists that they have under contract.
    > With copyright, the smaller artists have an uphill
    > battle. Without copyright, they have no weapons
    > whatsoever.
All discussions about the merits of copyright need to consider the opportunity cost of copyright as well as the advantages.

Given the absolute absence of evidence, the default needs to be no copyright, because copyright intrudes on our freedom. To be enforced, it's necessary to reach further and further into the privacy of people's lives and homes, and that is incompatible with the spirit of live-and-let live that is the foundation of free society.

I've just thought of a new counterclaim to the idea that we need to find a way to protect certain kinds of jobs. What about dancers? I've seen people make all these claims about protecting musicians, but what about dancers? Dancers don't make much money, and copyright doesn't provide for them. Not that copyright protects musicians either - it doesn't - but that's the claim so let's role with it for the purpose of pointing out this new inconsistency. Should the state also then be required to invent new and arbitrary business systems so that dancers should be able to make a living?

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason this is true is that the laws say it is. I disagree. I think it's part of the current social code/contract, not just the law. In fact, the RIAA/MPAA ads say exactly that - "you wouldn't steal a car" - because they know people find property (particularly personal property) to be something we have a right to. Copyright, on the other hand, is only unquestionable by the law.

> I think it's part of the current social code/contract Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same. Laws are indirectly derived from the social code, so just move my statement up a level. You still can't answer the question of how the social code ought to view bits from how it currently views them. Sometimes the social code is wrong, and those who believe that copyright piracy is bad for society ar…

Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same.

That's the thing: I don't believe they are. 46% (70% for young adults) of the US citizens admit to have committed copyright infringement. Almost no one agrees with large fines or with cutting off the connection for infringers.

I think there's a big disconnect between the social code and the law.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#266
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What? Are you retarded? No, and that kind of comment is not welcome here, either. Information goods most certainly are scarce if you look at the effort it takes to make a song, a movie, a complex piece of software. That time and effort is not free. 'Dreamed up' is a lot different from 'sat down and worked hard on it for months'.

(that kind of comment saved HN bandwidth several dozen KB, I wager. But, have it your way.) Your argument about scarcity is akin to saying "Never mind that we have trees that drop fruit on the ground for everyone into perpetuity--when you consider that we collect some fruit, cart it off to town, polish it, and cart it back, and sell it, of course fruit is a scarce resource!" If the time/effort would've been expended…

> (that kind of comment saved HN bandwidth several dozen KB, I wager. But, have it your way.)

Come on now, you've been here long enough to know that's not how HN works. It's about basic respect towards others--not just to the poster, but to all of us here on HN. As a developer (and someone who runs a development shop?) you know that developer time is important. A comment is 10 seconds to write but will be broadcast on a site like HN to be read by many over many cumulative hours. Say those things which are worth saying to 100k hackers, not those things which are not worth saying to one.

You run a C-based dev shop out of Houston. I run a C-based dev shop out of Austin. The probability of us doing business together IRL is unusually high. Now when we meet, I'm always going to be thinking of you as that guy who gets into flamewars and insults others, instead of the guy who writes beautifully-commented crypto POSIX code.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's part of the current social code/contract Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same. Laws are indirectly derived from the social code, so just move my statement up a level. You still can't answer the question of how the social code ought to view bits from how it currently views them. Sometimes the social code is wrong, and those who believe that copyright piracy is bad for society ar…

Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same. That's the thing: I don't believe they are. 46% (70% for young adults) of the US citizens admit to have committed copyright infringement. Almost no one agrees with large fines or with cutting off the connection for infringers. I think there's a big disconnect between the social code and the law.

OK, there may be somewhat of a disconnect. On the other hand, that disconnect is irrelevant to my point. I'm only saying that you can't argue from what is to what should be. Whether it's the social code or the law, pointing out that it's currently in favor of copyright infringement doesn't prove anything about whether it should be in favor of copyright infringement.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's part of the current social code/contract Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same. Laws are indirectly derived from the social code, so just move my statement up a level. You still can't answer the question of how the social code ought to view bits from how it currently views them. Sometimes the social code is wrong, and those who believe that copyright piracy is bad for society ar…

Eh. For the purposes of what I said, these are about the same. That's the thing: I don't believe they are. 46% (70% for young adults) of the US citizens admit to have committed copyright infringement. Almost no one agrees with large fines or with cutting off the connection for infringers. I think there's a big disconnect between the social code and the law.

[deleted]

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#269
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He says the opposite of this. Redthrowaway on free vs. paid content: That's a tired and no longer relevant point. His point is that people will pay for the convenience of acquiring media, and then presents an example of when it was convenient to him (purchasing an ebook when the pirated version was sub par quality). However, as I showed in my video example, iTunes (and many other companies) have already addressed t…

Maybe iTunes "addressed the issue," but not in a satisfactory way. iTunes is not remotely convenient for me. I can't watch an iTunes movie on my TV without either a) Buying a useless gadget from Apple, or b) Removing the DRM. Also, things are generally available for piracy way earlier (we're talking months in some cases) than they are on iTunes. That is a huge, massive inconvenience. As for prices, yes, iTunes is als…

Also people like the convenience of choosing and sampling from a large catalog of songs/media while paying only for things they really like. That is why flat rate streaming services are popular. $0.99 in content industry's eyes might be very low and already accessible price. But its too high for consumer who probably listens to it once a month while sampling a lot of songs - one more reason why flat rate streaming is the way to go....

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People pirate music because it's free I do think that's incorrect, but there's a broader picture issue that makes this irrelevant: Why does it even matter? You're misunderstanding the original argument. Of course it's possible to make some money for selling something that is free. Specially if you convince people that it's not free, and that you'll go to jail if you do otherwise. But what they mean with "there's no…

So the billions of dollars that exist for developers because of the app store are not value to the economy? huh?

I'm not sure what do you think is related in your analogy. Seems like two completely separate examples. The software industry adapted to depend less on copyright faster than the music industry. You don't see as much valueless copy selling in our industry anymore. Music should be following us, but they're slower to adapt than we are. Which is exactly the whole point of this discussion. What are you trying to say?
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