Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#81

Post by blamazon » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

rnk wrote: post #77

blamazon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nit: I can 'jump' (read: charge the battery of) other cars with my model X, as long as the other car is an ICE car. In the frunk there is a panel that pops off and underneath there are (unlabeled) 12V and ground terminals that I can put jumper cables on. However, I have had to get my car towed a mile to a charging station before, I really deeply wish I could have received a jump then.

Some AAA services carry a portable charger to recharge your ev, with the goal to give it a small charge so it can go to a nearby charging station for a full charge. https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/05/aaa-expanding-service-n... . There's nothing magic about it, you have a regular j1772 plug on the end of a generator, or a battery to provide it. Also a few evs now have 120v or 220v AC outlets, that you could put a j1…

That map is a lot more expansive than I expected, that's awesome! AAA was the roadside assistance provider I called in that instance I mentioned and they didn't offer this service at that time. (Although the driver did an incredible job dropping my car off in a difficultly placed charging stall!)

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#82

Post by rnk » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

anaganisk wrote: post #30

cj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding to that, you also can't jump start another Tesla with your Tesla (according to the manual) Edit: link to jumpstarting in manual: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_au/GUID-3567D5F...

Jump start? Pfft. The stupid car, got stuck with AC stuck on full heat, with a blacked out screen. Unresponsive to resets. I couldn't even open the damm frunk to remove the fuses, yeah okay I don't carry a 12v battery around with me to jump the frunk.(how difficult is it to give damm manual overrides for critical stuff) It was a rental so no access to Tesla app. Tesla Customer service refused to help, since it's a re…

I agree these situations can be dangerous and frustrating. There is a manual trunk release on the tesla, here's a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1bJ0F3R0Nc.

I have a rivian and the 12v battery died on it while I had it plugged in charging at home. In the manual I found the emergency trunk release (access from underneath the car), and then there was a manual release for the charging port inside the frunk.

My gas cars have died with some electrical problem before, out in the boonies where there was no one to help. But that was back when all my cars had a key, so I could at least open the door with physical key.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#83

Post by blamazon » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #75

blamazon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I've always thought it's a no brainer for any ICE car to have a solar roof. At a minimum it can keep a 12v battery from dying over long parking durations or high parasitic drain, and at best it could like, keep a container refrigerated or something.

I once drove back to SF from Castle Lake with a dead alternator by hanging an 85W portable solar panel over the rear window of my mx-5, connected to the battery in the trunk. It supplied enough juice to run the car with no accessories most of the way back, until a combination of overcast sky and uncooperative route direction started making the car hesitate at the slightest throttle input. So it'd definitely give a li…

That story brings me great joy, thank you for sharing.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#84

Post by petabytes » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/ sells bolt in kits for classic cars

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#85

Post by starbase » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

marak830 wrote: post #29

I'm sorry I have seen the thread leads, and I cannot agree with them and think the replies do not get enough notice. Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" are available. That's it. Give the full specs for everything. If it's code reliant(which wtf), what does it require to work? That's. Fucking. It. We give you rules to say peeps cannot sell what you made, you make it so we can repair…

> Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything"

Tesla provides that (and more) for free:

• Service Manual, Parts Manual, and Body Repair

• Tooling Catalog and Wiring Diagrams

• Service Bulletins

• Labor Codes and Times

• Service Mode Diagnostic Software (on the touchscreen)

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#86

Post by rnk » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #76

falcolas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An EV has two power systems, 12V (typically) for the car accessories, and 120V for the drive motors. And if the 12V system is down, you can’t drive the car (can’t close the contactor that connects the 120V batteries to the system). So, in theory, you could jump the 12V system so you can engage the 120V system.

The design that allows 12V to completely discharge while there's charge in high voltage batteries is idiotic. I ran into that in Toyota hybrid. Why there's no manual override that enables charging of 12V battery? It could be under the hood and turn off automatically when the voltage in 12V battery is high enough.

This same problem happens in evs where due to some problem the 12v discharges. When everything is working the 12v is charged up from the main battery bank.

Tesla in the early days sometimes ran down the 12v and it wasn't that uncommon, there were problems with runs of batteries yielding poor ones; I think they had messed up software that wasn't charging the 12v enough, but they made changes to address that long ago. On my second ev, a rivian, I just had to have my 12 battery replaced. They said sometimes the 12v batteries just die on them.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#87

Post by esjeon » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

omgJustTest wrote: post #37

Transpire7487 wrote: post #32

No normal person can repair a Tesla, it’s basically a trade secret. My brother is a mechanic and servicing Teslas are a non starter due to the complexity. The notion that I can just download a manual, buy some parts and DIY my own repairs is absolutey ludicrous. The only reason for Tesla to support right to repair is to increase regulatory burden on competitors, stunt innovation and raise costs for their competition.…

No normal person can cast an ICE header. Same logic.

It's not the best example unfortunately. People do build custom headers by cutting and welding various pipes using off-the-shelf tools. Welp, ICE is an old tech (from 18c), so it doesn't take dark magic to fix a whole ICE car mechanically. The real deal breaker is electric controllers w/ proprietary software.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#88

Post by rnk » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

Transpire7487 wrote: post #32

No normal person can repair a Tesla, it’s basically a trade secret. My brother is a mechanic and servicing Teslas are a non starter due to the complexity. The notion that I can just download a manual, buy some parts and DIY my own repairs is absolutey ludicrous. The only reason for Tesla to support right to repair is to increase regulatory burden on competitors, stunt innovation and raise costs for their competition.…

There are a very few private tesla repair garages that do know how to repair some things. They seem to be run by former tesla repairmen. They have been able to salvage a lot of dead cars. They seem to be mostly in california.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#89

Post by gnfargbl » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

candiddevmike wrote: post #50

marak830 wrote: post #29

I'm sorry I have seen the thread leads, and I cannot agree with them and think the replies do not get enough notice. Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" are available. That's it. Give the full specs for everything. If it's code reliant(which wtf), what does it require to work? That's. Fucking. It. We give you rules to say peeps cannot sell what you made, you make it so we can repair…

Right to repair eventually runs head first into security and encryption--how do you allow right to repair and TLS, encryption, secure computing, etc to coexist? Get rid of IoT black boxes like Google Homes? Allow Linux on Xbox? How do you create secure platforms while also giving consumers the keys to their devices? (FWIW I'm not advocating against right to repair, I actually hope it helps to get rid of black box IoT…

I don't see the conflict. If it important that the device can prove its authenticity to some centralised service then yes, it is likely that the consumer can't also modify that device.

But how many devices really need that level of attestation? Does a tractor need to be able to prove to John Deere that it is a genuine unmolested vehicle, or does it just need to prove to JD that an active subscription is in place for whatever remote service is being used?

If just the latter, then we can still have encryption, no problems. That's just username & password over TLS, same as we have been doing for decades on untrusted endpoints.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#90

Post by MostlyStable » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

SenAnder wrote: post #15

javajosh wrote: post #3

Rather than us fighting for the right to repair, shouldn't manufacturers be fighting for the right to limit our ability to repair? Isn't "right to repair" the default state? The right to repair, modify, disassemble, recombine your own property is a key component of capitalism, is it not?

In addition to all the legal restrictions on "reverse engineering" (i.e. examining how stuff works) and circumventing DRM, as technology advances, using technical means to restrict otherwise legal end-user activities is becoming a big problem. That you're legally allowed to repair your tractor doesn't help much if the on-board secure TPM chip flags your replacement parts as counterfeit, locks the engine, and reports…

This is something I've wondered about. For cars there is a bunch of regulatory stuff that might preven you from doing this, but I believe the regulatory burden on tractors is much less. Why has no one just built a full on control system swap for tractors? Yeah, the OEM control board won't recognize your replacement part. Or it won't tell you whats actually wrong. Etc. Etc. But if you just replace it with an entirely OSS control system, that problem goes away.

I know that this probably not a trivial task, but, given the amount of money at stake, it feels worthwhile, but maybe I'm just underestimating the degree of integration of the current control system into the parts. If everything down the internal engine sensors is running priprietary, encrypted software and you basically have to tear it down and replace every single electronic component on the tractor, then yeah it probably won't ever make sense.