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How to Apologize

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Re: How to Apologize

#141

Post by georgeorwell »

protomyth wrote: post #127
rtperson wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is not a accepted selling point of professionals. Rather, it will get you in serious trouble in many professional environments. Not to defend Sqoot at all, but... um... booth babes? Every large trade show has them. They are there specifically to excite the hormones of the male professionals in attendance. Their use is as sexist as it is effective. Had Sqoot quietly hired a bunch of models to serve beer to the at…

Booth babes are a problem and the protests have gone up about them (to the point of misidentifying a women as a booth babe will get you in trouble). If they had quietly done it and female developers had showed up, the damage would have been worse, much worse. Words are one thing, pictures of scantily clad models serving beer at a hackathon would have been a little too juicy for the bloggers. Twitter pictures turn int…

"Their crime is thinking..."

Can somebody help me to issue a DMCA notice?

Re: How to Apologize

#142

Post by protomyth »

georgeorwell wrote: post #141
protomyth wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Booth babes are a problem and the protests have gone up about them (to the point of misidentifying a women as a booth babe will get you in trouble). If they had quietly done it and female developers had showed up, the damage would have been worse, much worse. Words are one thing, pictures of scantily clad models serving beer at a hackathon would have been a little too juicy for the bloggers. Twitter pictures turn int…

"Their crime is thinking..." Can somebody help me to issue a DMCA notice?

There are crimes of state and of the heart and mind. Some require paperwork and lawyers. Others result in groups of people expressing their disapproval in various ways. Both can be very serious and poor times for levity.

Re: How to Apologize

#143

Post by orblivion »

cgoddard wrote: post #123
orblivion wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation. Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste…

What's most offensive about the incident wasn't the wording in the ad, but the fact that they were going to hire exclusively women as sex objects (eye candy) for a professional event. The ad simply provided advance notice and an opportunity to call them out on it before the event actually happened.

> professional event

I didn't think hackathons were particularly professional. But I agree, the whole idea is pretty ridiculous.

Re: How to Apologize

#144

Post by batista »

natep wrote: post #130
batista wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else, because you're not right. That about factual correctness. Another ballgame altogether. Whet…

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of its sponsors and potential audience at least), the answer is a clear "No." And regarding the slippery slope you tried to construct, I don't think there is one, unless you are a moral relativist. Anyone that thin…

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages.

Only women are not listed as percs.

The PRESENCE of beautiful women serving beer is used as a perc. It's not like you BUY these women or use them as slaves...

In other words, not very different from a Hooters.

And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of its sponsors and potential audience at least), the answer is a clear "No."

I'm unsure about the "clear" though.

How much of the potential audience would rather enjoy such an event, but is afraid to say so, because it's not PC?

Re: How to Apologize

#145

Post by jamesaguilar »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

In the case of your first paragraph, I'd say just don't apologize then. Say nothing, or, if you must, explain why your thinking differs with those criticizing you.

For example, if Sqoot is not sorry, they could remain silent. Or they could say, "We understand that this is sexist. We care more about getting large attendance, and have a reasonable belief that attractive women serving beer will accomplish that end." That will probably enrage people even more so I think silence is the best option in this case.

> We need to make sure we are not trying to tell people how to think.

It is fine to tell people how to think if they are thinking wrongly. It is fine to use what force you have available to you, be it economic, social or political, to change their actions if you think those actions are harmful enough to warrant it.

Re: How to Apologize

#146

Post by rsynnott »

orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

> In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke.

But there was no joke. None. It wasn't even an offensive joke (not that they're all that rare in the community, sadly), it was just offensive. I think their characterisation of it as a joke is just an attempt to get themselves out of hot water.

Re: How to Apologize

#147

Post by rsynnott »

Duff wrote: post #82
orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sister is an engineer/designer, so I've heard her perspective on this as well. The issue with this kind of behavior is that it intimidates and/or repels professional women. It doesn't set an appropriate tone. If you were a woman with a degree in CS who was potenti…

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect.

99% of time, when people whine about being oppressed by 'political correctness', what they're really complaining about is ordinary human decency.

Re: How to Apologize

#148

Post by rsynnott »

orblivion wrote: post #57
ttt_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1) I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. The joke might seem harmless to you (because your are privileged[1] to think so), but it doesn't mean it is for everyone. Also, if the joke is based on any kind of prejudice (the teller being aware of it or not), it is in fact harmfull as it only helps the status quo, while a number a groups are putting tremendous effor…

Though I'm generally turned off by the use of the word "privilege", I actually don't disagree with you on either point. 1) I'm not saying this is a harmless joke. I'm saying that I'm afraid that actual harmless jokes will fall prey to the backlash against ones like this. I anticipate that there will be another story at some point where an actual funny, but edgy, joke will be told and I will have to find myself on the…

> I anticipate that there will be another story at some point where an actual funny, but edgy, joke will be told and I will have to find myself on the other side of the argument

I think if there was an actual joke involved (a proper one, which was coherent and possibly even amusing) the reaction would be rather different.

Re: How to Apologize

#149

Post by rsynnott »

_delirium wrote: post #39
mtoddh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything Yes - and many people are going to see this as a good thing (and some won't). I think the best route is to never include any references to gender, (or race, or any hot button issue) in any of your promotional material, slides, talks or whatever. Even if it's intended as light-hearted humor.

It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon). I think given various bits of cultural history/etc., people have a stronger internal voice saying "uhh, do you really want to say that?" when it comes to making race-related jokes in public, especially connected to anything official.

> It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon).

In many (most?) cultures, sexist comments are still _far_ more socially acceptable than racist comments. Look at dumb blonde jokes; distasteful and offensive, but many people are willing to make them in public; substitute an ethnic minority for the 'dumb blonde' and you'd find that far, far fewer people would be willing to make them.

You see the same with casual homophobia; it's not socially acceptable, but it's far, far less shocking than racism.

Re: How to Apologize

#150

Post by rsynnott »

kristiandupont wrote: post #15

This is a very interesting topic. The thing is that an apology doesn't really make any sense unless the person offering it is actually sorry (for what happened, not that they got caught). I see three different kinds of cases: 1) You do something that has a consequence that you didn't intend and you immediately regret it, like spilling coffee on someone. 2) You say or do something that you don't find offensive until y…

The only case in which the person who originally wrote this could fall into category three is if they were a sociopath.
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