Live data from Hacker News

How to Apologize

philomousos.blogspot.com

131–140 of 179 posts

Re: How to Apologize

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, we don't live in "a world where people aren't putting pornography on their slide presentations" — we live in a world where it happens pretty regularly. Sexism is deeply embedded in the culture of the software industry; in that context, there isn't really any such thing as a "harmless joke". These "jokes" continually reinforce the thought that women aren't welcome in our community.

And thank are due to you and the other organizers for emphasizing that message at PyCon. The recent conference was a great example of treating inclusiveness as the norm.

s/thank/thanks/

typos, sigh...

Re: How to Apologize

#132
post #9

"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offend…

For someone who's part of a group that hasn't been historically marginalized and discriminated against it's a lot easier to laugh off racist or sexist jokes regarding their own differences. With a bad historical precedent however, an otherwise harmless joke reinforces and reinvigorates past discrimination and marginalization, and actively contributes to a hostile culture and specifically a hostile work environment in this case.

Just because you wouldn't be offended by something doesn't mean lots of other people aren't, or that your harmless and thoughtless jokes aren't deeply offensive and repugnant for historical reasons you possibly haven't considered.

Re: How to Apologize

#133
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sister is an engineer/designer, so I've heard her perspective on this as well. The issue with this kind of behavior is that it intimidates and/or repels professional women. It doesn't set an appropriate tone. If you were a woman with a degree in CS who was potenti…

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation. Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste…

I don't understand why you think there is some sweet spot for a professional event where a sexist joke can be appropriate.

Problems with your rewrite: Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.)

1. Boys and Girls are children. Men and Women are adults. The target audience for professional events are people.

2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. It both degrades women and shames men.

3. It creates a hostile environment for a woman who programs well. By outing herself as capable she will create social strife with her male peers. There is a reason women do worse on math exams in the presence of men. Social pressures is a real thing that you, as a presumably straight white male, get to ignore.

4. Pointing out you hired an all female staff makes explicit you cater to straight men.

5. By prefacing it with "Women:" you are still listing the female servants as a perk. "Great Food" Is a perk. "Handed to by a woman" is not.

The entire concept literally uses breasts and vaginas as a lure for men. You keep trying to force the idea but it won't ever work in an inclusive way.

Re: How to Apologize

#134

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

I can't and won't defend these guys, but I remember my teenage years, and I remember being pretty shallow when it came to women. Looking around, I suspect many other males were the same way. I got over this by slowly growing up, not by having a crowd tell me I was an ass. I think if the crowd had pressured me back then, I'd tell them to go jump in a lake. These guys were wrong, no two ways about it. My concern is tha…

Five hundred years ago, "kids being kids" would have described setting cats on fire. We can do better than that, and we can do better than this.

Re: How to Apologize

#135
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sister is an engineer/designer, so I've heard her perspective on this as well. The issue with this kind of behavior is that it intimidates and/or repels professional women. It doesn't set an appropriate tone. If you were a woman with a degree in CS who was potenti…

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation. Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste…

I think that you're trying to swim in dangerous waters.

Do you think that your variation would be considered OK if you were talking about a racial group? Or short people?

Personally, I'd want to stress that this is an event where you can hack and have fun. Just say some variation of "We have an awesome event staff on-site to serve you! Cold beer, hot wings, etc on us!"

Re: How to Apologize

#136
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, saying that you like chicks is not sexist. Implying that women are for getting beer is sexist. Saying that the presence of hired female staff is a "perk" is sexist.

Why? I enjoy women.

If you enjoy women, why not let them do something other than get the beer?

Re: How to Apologize

#137
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. I think this opinion is wrong. If one expresses his opinion about slavery, he should not be fired. Now that you had this wrong opinion about opinions, should you be fired? From work? From Hacker News? Anywhere?

Really? If someone at your job expressed the "opinion" that you, personally, should be chained and sold as property, and that they should be allowed to beat, rape, and murder you as they saw fit, that would be acceptable behavior at your job? Because that's what the OP was suggesting, except that they used the umbrella term "slavery" to refer to it.

Yes, really. The OP did not really say that. OP used the word "slavery" and having opinions about slavery is totally different than saying that some specific person should be murdered. If someone at my workplace would support slavery, whatever that is by today's standards, I would probably feel that I don't want to work with that person. And depending on that someone's role, his employer might want to have a word with him and might ultimately have some good grounds for terminating his contract. But just having opinions are rarely a reason to fire someone. And that is just right (my opinion).

Re: How to Apologize

#138

Am I the only one that thought their comment was in good humor? Maybe my sense of humor is twisted, but having attended many hackathons, I got a good chuckle as it was obvious that many of them turn out to be sausage fests. I felt this comment poked fun at this.

I can see why someone who meant well could have said this without realizing it was offensive, but that doesn't change the fact that it genuinely was offensive.

Re: How to Apologize

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally subscribe to the Utopian ideal that good ideas should be able to triumph over bad ideas by virtue alone, there are probably both times where it is inappropriate and appropriate for someones opinions and beliefs to be relevant to their employment. Scenario A, normal job, no customer interaction, non-manager, but an irrepressibly talkative fellow. Likes to talk to his co-workers about how awesome slav…

A more relevant and recent example is whether you support software patents. Those opposed to them rail against those in favor of them pretty hard. Some are now making hiring decisions based upon that. Should I not be allowed to express my views on software patents simply because you don't agree with them? You'd like to paint it as a black & white issue, but I don't see it that way. Sorry for the liberal use of pronou…

Detour from the main point: as a programmer, I'm pretty OK with programmers and programmer-employers coming to blows over software patents. Programmers are still in a bit of a weird spot with respect to the rest of the working class. Get fired from your job as a cashier at Walmart because of your opinions, you'll be lucky to find another job. Get fired from your job as a programmer because of your opinions, you'll probably find a better one even before your blog post on employer X firing programmers who are opposed to software patents gets a thousand points on HN. As a programmer, I just don't feel the same employment-insecurity a lot of non-programmers I know do.

The main point of the matter is, the interests of employers and employees are not well aligned. Employers do not want employees to know what their coworkers or colleagues at other companies make. Employees benefit from having this forbidden knowledge. Employees would prefer to only be fired for direct, active malevolence towards their employer. Employers would prefer to fire anyone they think is a liability to their business.

Employee beliefs matter because, as much as employers would prefer otherwise, employees are not cogs or robots who perform mechanistically. If you don't believe in software patents, how will that affect your performance at your job? Even if your employer isn't a part-time patent troll, but is extremely concerned about being sued by them, will you generate your fair share of defensive patents to be used as a shield for a few years? Or will you knowingly violate software patents you believe are bullshit, opening up your company to 10x the penalties should you lose in court?

Post reply on HN