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Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#51

Post by Moldoteck »

danpalmer wrote: post #26
version_five wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that. I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer. Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mal…

Mass surveillance is bad, but I think there are versions of it that are far less bad than others. Apple's proposed solution would have theoretically only reported cases that were much more than likely to be already known instances of CSAM (i.e. not pictures of your kids), and if nothing else is reported, can we say that they were really surveilled? In some very strict sense, yes, but in terms of outcomes, no.

ok, and in theory, with new generative algorithms, do you think it's still ok? Suppose apple implements this, suppose someone finds a way to generate meme images that can trigger apple's algorithm(but human can't see anything wrong), suppose that someone wants to harm you and sends you a bunch of memes and you save them. What will happen? Or what does happen if somebody is using generative algorithm to create csam like images by using people's face as base but the rest of the image is generated, should this also trigger csam?

Also, you can not guarantee that apple/google will use only known instances of csam, what if, govt orders them/google to scan for other type of content under the hood, like documents or god knows what else bc govt want's to screw that person (for the sake of example let's suppose the targeted person is some journalist that discovered shady stuff and govt wants to put em in prison), bc you know, you don't have access to either algorithms and csam scan list that they are using, system could be abused and usually could means 'sometime' it will

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#52

Post by no_time »

_m8fo wrote: post #16

I’m not sure I understand Apple’s logic here. Are iCloud Photos in their data centers not scanned? Isn’t everything by default for iCloud users sent there automatically to begin with? Doesn’t the same logic around slippery slope also apply to cloud scans? This is not to say they should scan locally, but my understanding of CSAM was that it would only be scanned on its way to the cloud anyways, so users who didn’t use…

> I’m not sure I understand apples logic here. Are iCloud Photos in their data centers not scanned? Isn’t everything by default for iCloud users sent there automatically to begin with? Doesn’t the same logic around slippery slope also apply to cloud scans?

I don’t see the problem with this status quo. There is a clear demarcation between my device and their server. Each serving the interests of their owner. If I have a problem with their policy, I can choose not to entrust my data to them. And luckily, the data storage space has heaps of competitive options.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#54

Post by gnfargbl »

red_admiral wrote: post #45
glogla wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This morality may not be so unusual outside the tech "filter bubble". And wherever someone, like the OP, appears to be serious, my own personal morality says the absolute least they deserve is an equally serious answer.

I'm confused by what you mean by "morality" here. The only moral position that I am communicating is that child sexual abuse is a real thing that really happens, and it is bad for both the individual and for society. That's it. There's no subtext. There is explicitly no refutation of the arguments against client-side CSAM scanning which, I will say again, are unambiguously correct.

Is being against child sexual abuse really an unusual opinion in the tech industry? Have we really all gone so far along the Heinlein/Rand road that any mention of a real negative outcome gets immediately dismissed with the empathy-free thought-terminating-cliche "think of the children?"

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#55

Post by DSingularity »

version_five wrote: post #22
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that. I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer. Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mal…

When tech creates problems should tech tried to solve it or should tech be limited?

We deceive ourselves honestly by pretending like we have not created new realities which are problematic at scale. We have. They are plentiful. And if people aren’t willing that we walk back tech to reduce the problems and people aren’t willing to accept technical solutions which are invasive then what are we to do? Are we just to accept a new world with all these problems stemming from unintended consequences of tech?

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#56

Post by liveoneggs »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

How many times are you okay with having your own children taken from you while the thought police make sure your latest family beach vacation wasn't actually trafficking?

How many times will actual abusers be allowed to go free while your own family is victimized by the authorities and what ratio do you find acceptable?

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#57

Post by stuartjohnson12 »

menzoic wrote: post #33

Pretty ridiculous idea. Bad actors simply won't use their platform if this was in place. It would only be scanning private data from all people who aren't comitting crimes.

You'd be surprised. Lots of offenders are very low sophistication. If you read news articles about how a particular offender was caught with illegal material, so so often it's because they uploaded it to a cloud provider. It's not a one-sided tradeoff here.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#58

Post by seanieb »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

We were not even at a point where that question needs to be asked.

Federal and state police, some of the best funded, equipped and trained police in the world are so inundated with cases that they are forced to limit their investigations to just toddlers and babies. What use is it to add more and more cases to a mountain of uninvestigated crimes? Whats needed is more police clearing the existing caseload.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#59

Post by sebstefan »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

>Both of these arguments are absolutely, unambiguously, correct.

Oh, please. As if we couldn't just compare the hashes of the pictures people are storing against a CSAM database of hashes that gets regularly updated

When this was proposed people would respond "But they could just mirror the pictures or cut a pixel off!"

Who cares? You got that picture from some place in the dark web, and eventually someone will stumble upon it and add it to the database. Unless the person individually edits the pictures as they store them, that makes it so that you're never sure if your hashes will posthumously start matching against the DB.

People who wank off to CSAM have a user behavior similar to any other porn user, they don't store 1 picture, they store dozens, and just adding that step makes them likely to trip up, or straight up just use another service altogether

"What if there's a collision?" I don't know, go one step further with hashing a specific part of the file and see if it still matches?

This whole thing felt like an overblown fearmongering campaign from "freedom ain't free" individualists. I've never seen anything wrong with content hosters using a simple hash against you like this.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#60

Post by PrimeMcFly »

theshrike79 wrote: post #37
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an incredibly bad thing. It's also an incredibly poor excuse to justify backdooring phones. Cops need to investigate the same way they always have, look for clues, go undercover, infiltrate, find where this stuff is actually being made, etc. Scanning everyone's phones would make their jobs significantly easier, no doubt, but it simply isn't worth the cost to us as a society and there is simply no good counter-ar…

Let's take a step back here and bring in some facts. "Apple" wasn't scanning your phone, neither was there a "backdoor". If you would've had iCloud upload enabled (you'd be uploading all your photos to Apple's server, a place where they could scan ALL of your media anyway), the phone would've downloaded a set of hashes of KNOWN and HUMAN VERIFIED photos and videos of sexual abuse material. [1] After THREE matches of…

> "Apple" wasn't scanning your phone, neither was there a "backdoor".

Yes, you're right. But I've seen calls for phones to scan all content before being uploaded or encrypted, and it often feels, at least in some countries, that could still plausible happen. I suppose that's what I had in mind when I wrote my comment.

> But the exact same risk exists when you upload stuff to the cloud anyway and on an even bigger scale.

There's a difference with them actively doing it and announcing they are doing it, vs the possibility they are doing it silently without consent.

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