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When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

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Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#291

Post by jhatemyjob »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #269
mulmen wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree and have worked in multiple environments where your actions would have harmed me personally. Your manager is never your friend. All relationships with management are adversarial. It’s like talking to the police. Do not volunteer information. You don’t know where other people are, always obtain consent.

This has not been my experience at any of the places I've worked. All of my managers have been supportive, open with information, and collaborative, including in promotions and in negotiations with other teams for resources. I would never knowingly take a job at a company where the culture requires this attitude towards management. I'd also try hard to avoid corporate cultures where praise can somehow hurt someone.

Sounds like you have a good job. That's great! But you still have no idea what your coworkers are going through. Maybe you have a good job, but your coworker has an awful one, and praising them makes them a target.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#292

Post by jcuenod »

jahsome wrote: post #162
eweise wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

I personally prefer earnest over disingenuous. There are fewer opportunities to misunderstand. A question by it's nature isn't aggressive. The words "should" and "we" are the real cancers IMO, as in "we should have done..." I think your example of have you thought about, vs. Why did you is potentially better but I personally don't have an issue answering either question or feel attacked in either case. I would on the…

There are intelligent people who are great at ingenuous praise. I'm not one of them, but often in striving for the former, I fail at the latter. Smart people are able to find things that are praiseworthy, which gives greater credibility to questions and critique.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#293

Post by johnnyanmac »

mulmen wrote: post #235
johnnyanmac wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorced from the reality that you don't own the work corporations extract from you? From the reality that there are co-workers who aren't mutually planning your destruction? Everyone's experience is different, I guess. But I assure you there are places where co-workers are fine focusing on work and not making specifically you miserable.

I'm not sure what conversation you are having or who you think you are having it with. The world you have described doesn't exist. The point here is that taking a stand is admirable but personal. You should never force others to join you. You may desire a world in which unsolicited feedback has no negative consequence but we don't live in that reality.

> You should never force others to join you

you were clearly never on the same wavelength as me to begin with if that's your conclusion. Remember your original comment compared "giving out information" that your boss already has to talking to the police (who at least need to subpeona the govt. to get more information).

I'm just saying that not every job has you living in fear. If you haven't experienced that environment yet, I wish you greener pastures.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#294

Post by johnnyanmac »

thegrimmest wrote: post #249
johnnyanmac wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? "your code sucks" is even more concise. We can take a minute out of our time to elaborate and clarify, and of course not result to insults. >Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible.…

> "your code sucks" is even more concise. It doesn't convey the same meaning at all though. One is a constructive criticism, one is not. Asking about reasoning for discarding alternative solutions is a perfectly standard part of any review process. It doesn't need to be further elongated and stylized to reduce directness. > "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse" Nowhere in my post did I justify abuse. Ad hom…

> One is a constructive criticism, one is not.

The other one is accusatory in tone and puts the user in a defensive position. Even a simple tweak to say "did you consider this approach" is better than a direct "why did you do it this way/not that way"? So I argue the original form leans a bit away from constructive.

> I'm defending a more direct style that communicates the same message, not a difference message all together.

and unfortunately, that direct style has histories of being used to put down. Hence my allegory. Good intentions, but if you can't consider how that language was used by others in less savory ways, you will simply end up the same when you dismiss someone's personal concerns: Tonedeaf.

>If you're consistently authoring inadequate contributions

And here's the assumption that once again comes out of nowhere. Why are we assuming that the hostile employee is right and everyone else is dumb? There are very few cases where these kinds of workers are truly in the right, and those that do tend to have enough emotional intelligence to go on a tirade against every co-worker, as opposed to talking to a manager or director.

Complain up the ladder, not in your immediate radius. I'm assuming we're all competent professionals, so there's almost no reason to ever lash out at a co-worker over their code quality.

>some people understand that they're fulfilling a professional function in exchange for compensation and don't see that their feelings have anything to do with it.

Then they shouldn't care about their co-worker's code quality unless they are constantly asked to fix it. Which is a managerial problem, not a co-worker problem. Same matter applies.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#295

Post by ncr100 »

mulmen wrote: post #193
ncr100 wrote: post #3

Yes. This helps build the type of organization YOU WANT TO WORK FOR. Reinforce it. You can't provide material motivation to the business (unless you're also the company's biggest customer .. heh.) You CAN provide reinforcing feedback to management. Quantify why XYZ coworker helped. And if Management does NOT listen, f'em. Notice when mgmt responds in a truly incorrect manner. And vote next with your feet.

Don’t throw your coworkers under the bus. You may feel this cause is worthy but don’t force others into your crusade.

Would an example be to celebrate someone who is doing something I think is great, and overlook celebrating others whose work is less my crusade?

Or is the point to avoid critiquing coworkers TO management, bypassing seeking feedback of the person first?

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#296

Post by projectazorian »

graypegg wrote: post #236
neilv wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you assuming that you're right?

I think it's about tone; it feels patronizing to me as well. "How does this approach handle {problem}?" is very socratic. You're asking a question meant to make them reconsider their idea in a very round about way. I think that actually comes off as assuming you're right in this conversation. I would imagine the person asking me that is being a snobby asshole showing off how intelligent they are. It's on the other pe…

> "How does this approach handle {problem}?" is very socratic. You're asking a question meant to make them reconsider their idea in a very round about way. I think that actually comes off as assuming you're right in this conversation. I would imagine the person asking me that is being a snobby asshole showing off how intelligent they are.

Alternatively, the questioner might not have your context on the situation and they might sincerely want to know if you've considered the problem they're asking about.

"Not sure, but I'll look into that" is an acceptable answer most of the time.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#297

Post by pbourke »

borroka wrote: post #161
madeofpalk wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it has to be that deep. The world is a big place, full of many cultures that operate - especially with giving criticism - very differently. You don’t need to master the tone of every culture, but it’s important to at least be cognisant that even these difference exist.

I don't see my comment as particularly profound. I have lived for a few decades at this point and have noticed, like anyone else I imagine, a desire in (some, but a nontrivial percentage of) people to maintain lifelong ways of thinking and behaving that have been historically associated with early life. For example, a desire to be praised and not challenged, to dress like a teenager even as one nears retirement, to s…

> to dress like a teenager even as one nears retirement

For some of us this is a KPI of our life/job satisfaction.

I can tell you that if I was in some job that did not allow me to schlep around in hoodies and cargo pants I would be much, much less happy than I am today.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#298

Post by amatecha »

mulmen wrote: post #177
agloe_dreams wrote: post #5

I disagree with the angle on this about asking and how to go about things but mostly because complimenting in context is helpful. When someone does great work, tell everyone, not just their manager. Do it in public and clearly in standups after they talk about what they did last day/week. "I just want to mention, that work that Joe did on that module is fantastic, thanks!" It is so easy to be a force for good. Being…

I strongly disagree and have worked in multiple environments where your actions would have harmed me personally. Your manager is never your friend. All relationships with management are adversarial. It’s like talking to the police. Do not volunteer information. You don’t know where other people are, always obtain consent.

Jeez, that sucks, sorry you had to endure such a toxic environment. I hope you're working in a more psychologically-safe workplace now. I've worked in the full spectrum from probably-legally-actionable toxicity to extremely welcoming/safe and productive environments and can definitely say I won't tolerate the toxic shit for a second anymore. It's easy for me to say that because I have a lot of experience, and I absolutely feel for ppl who are early in their career and don't feel they have the flexibility to flee a toxic work environment..

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#299

Post by conro1108 »

mulmen wrote: post #266
handoflixue wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no corollary hill worth dying on. A quick Google search would reveal that "This is a hill I will die on" is in fact an extremely common saying.

Yes, it is common. I would even call it cliche. Being common doesn't make it interesting or valuable.

Sounds like this is a hill you're willing to die on

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#300

Post by johnnyanmac »

mcpackieh wrote: post #289
thegrimmest wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "your code sucks" is even more concise. It doesn't convey the same meaning at all though. One is a constructive criticism, one is not. Asking about reasoning for discarding alternative solutions is a perfectly standard part of any review process. It doesn't need to be further elongated and stylized to reduce directness. > "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse" Nowhere in my post did I justify abuse. Ad hom…

Have you noticed that the people advocating for emotional coddling in this thread also seem to have trouble with nuance? They pose this false dichotomy of "Wow I really love this but..." vs "This sucks go fuck yourself" Simply being direct and forward without wrapping your words with empty praise or naked insults doesn't seem to be an option they recognize.

'I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.' - Mark Twain

I also notice many people advocating "directness" tend to be bad with words. You may be paid to code, but you're still a professional expected to know how to communicate with peers and everyone else involved. Take time in both your craft and words.

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