When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#191

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

johndhi wrote: post #141

rescripting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking first makes sense because they may have been told by their manager to deprioritize or stop working on whatever your problem was, but they used their judgement and helped you anyway. Praising them in front of others undermines that directive, and even if their manager was ok with them helping you in this one off situation they may not want to advertise "Go to John for help with X". You hear stories of employees…

If the manager told the IC to deprioritize what I'm asking for, the IC should tell me that. If the IC tells me that, I'll consider that in what I write about the IC. Also - I'm not necessarily advocating for praising in front of others in every case. In some cases that makes sense, in some cases it makes sense just to send a message to the manager directly.

This is a ridiculously entitled position. You have your perception and are acting on it without considering the consequences to anyone else. Your risk-reward calculation is wrong in the worst way because it hurts someone else and you never feel the consequence so you never correct.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#192

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:32 PM UTC

confidantlake wrote: post #61

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

The phrasing seems confusing and manipulative. Did you like my approach or not? I would rather someone be straight up with me. If you don't like the approach or would have done it differently say so and we can talk about it. Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like.

>Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like.

issue in cultures like this is compliments never come. Maybe a "thanks/good work" after the project/module is done, but by then it's empty words. feels more like "thanks for making me lots of money" instead of "thanks for contributing your skills to this project" if we treat compliments with a waterfall approach with no substance.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#193

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:32 PM UTC

ncr100 wrote: post #3

Yes. This helps build the type of organization YOU WANT TO WORK FOR. Reinforce it. You can't provide material motivation to the business (unless you're also the company's biggest customer .. heh.) You CAN provide reinforcing feedback to management. Quantify why XYZ coworker helped. And if Management does NOT listen, f'em. Notice when mgmt responds in a truly incorrect manner. And vote next with your feet.

Don’t throw your coworkers under the bus. You may feel this cause is worthy but don’t force others into your crusade.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#194

Post by qwytw » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

gretch wrote: post #175

function_seven wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?

> I would like people to be straight with me But you understand that people can genuinely like you right? Perhaps that person is trying to not throw the baby out with the bath water. “Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but can you give the SREs a heads up next time? They p0’ed on an expected traffic spike” The person is actually happy with you for fixing a bug. They don’t want to you take away that in the future, to n…

"Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but.."

To me that just sounds passive aggressive and sort of like "you should mind your own business".

I'd feel better you if someone just told me: "I saw you patched a bug, could you do X"

or even just "can you give the SREs a heads up next time?" alone.

Then again I'm used to a culture where any praise is ussually implicit and criticism tends to be quite explicit so it's easy to interpret words like "glad" etc. as insincere by default without even wanting too..

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#195

Post by ineptech » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

Fair warning, the research mentioned at the beginning of this video is controversial and (I think it's fair to say) has generally failed to replicate.

The research in question ("Praise for intelligence can undermine children's motivation and performance", Dweck & Mueller): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/

Overview of the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism

Previous HN discussion on the paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#196

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

bootlegbilly wrote: post #181

at my job, it's part of company culture to praise people publicly whenever they're doing great work. it's a great way of knowing you're on the right path.

Public praise is different than direct management praise. It still shouldn’t be done without consent. Your intention may be good but only effect matters.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#197

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:35 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #90

benefit of starting to give feedback if you're not already: ============================== - a lot risk that giving feedback without asking that hurts the recipient: == - very small 0 ---------------------------- a lot If you are trying to follow this advice but are scared your feedback might "backfire," see the infographic above. The risk is non-zero, but the takeaway here should be "you should start giving feedback…

Weird take. There’s risk in unsolicited feedback but nearly zero cost in simply asking. Why take the chance?

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#198

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:36 PM UTC

thegrimmest wrote: post #63

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

This is a very stylistic and subjective take. Not all workplace cultures and not all people prefer to communicate this way, and many of us resent the "YTA" label that is applied to a direct communication style. I don't work for praise, and I maintain high standards as a matter of personal professionalism. I couldn't care less whether my colleagues recognize me, and business leaders don't care about your effort; they…

>Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative?

"your code sucks" is even more concise. We can take a minute out of our time to elaborate and clarify, and of course not result to insults.

>Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible.

And this mindset is exactly what leads to meltdowns in certain industries. "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse". People still want to generally feel like they belong and if all you put out is criticism they will find that belonging elsewhere. You can't be negative 100% of the time and be surprised when morale is down.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#199

Post by breakfastduck » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:37 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #189

graypegg wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of agree, I don’t want to work with a HR robot. I know someone that talks like this to non-coworker friends and it’s honestly just… offputting. I’m more into “ehhh honestly not how I would do it. The {problem} will cause issues down the road”. And that opens up a two ended respectful conversation. Someone telling that to me, I’m not going to think they’re being an asshole. I’ve learned a lot from people stoppi…

> “ehhh honestly not how I would do it. The {problem} will cause issues down the road” If the context is that someone is speaking about something they think they know, and which would be acted upon, what about phrasing the concern as a question, like "How does that approach handle {problem}?"? (Not that I always practice this, because I don't. But probably it's generally best if I don't assume I'm right. Risks includ…

thats even more patronizing imo.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#200

Post by RobRivera » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:38 PM UTC

eweise wrote: post #157

ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

I dont think it is good faith to label different communication styles as poor social skills. Many a DnD nerd have no problems communicating, but simply have a different communication style than johhny the quarterback. Part of diversity is understanding cultural differences as much as style.

I love being told short, crisp, critical feedbacj that is data dense. Any overly verbose communication adds a layer of parsing and interpretation which may be unnecessarily ambiguous, which is more costly and for the benefit of what? a subjective opinion that it is 'more social'?

As with most things, it depends and knowing your audience goes miles.