When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#81

Post by palata » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #41

5cott0 wrote: post #36

It is a fun exercise to think of all the interesting ways the 2nd order effects of these feedback hacks can be weaponized in office politicks.

Is this a justification for keeping complimentary feedback to yourself? Seems like a recipe for a continually worsening world. We gotta rise above that shit. If you have something nice to say, you should say it. Any workplace that penalizes you for that, you should leave--maybe with a parting act of sabotage.

> Any workplace that penalizes you for that, you should leave

I don't think that's necessarily what the parent means. I can totally imagine that the workplace will penalize those who get less praise (because if they don't get spontaneous complimentary feedback (or less), they are probably not as good, right?).

What happens for people who are less social, or more isolated (e.g. in a smaller team)?

Not saying that we should not compliment coworkers. Just that it is important to think that there are ways to do it wrong ("Let's have a white board collecting the nice feedback everybody gets, so that we all enjoy it! What do you mean this creates a public ranking in the office?").

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#82

Post by xxs » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #60

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Commonly called "Positive, to & try", taught to Snowboard Instructors. i.e. "I really like how you did that, to get even better results, try x" (I'm being vague to not make it about snowboarding, but it's important to be concrete) i.e. Instead of "that took too long, make it faster", use I really…

At some point people understand the 'approach', and it is extra condescending. Being straight/blunt is not about hurting someone's feeling.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#83

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

gabereiser wrote: post #31

sokoloff wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's impressive how much time you were able to waste while only accomplishing X", but said a lot more politely.

This is how that would come across to most people, yes. Praise should never be a time to display your intellectual superiority.

[deleted]

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#84

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #77

whatshisface wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego…

"I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#85

Post by w0m » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

user_named wrote: post #43

thenose wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.

No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.

A better way to describe it.

Have you ever brought in a new engineer; and their first pull request gets a dozen or more 'Change this' 'this won't handle X'?

Watch an NCGs face as the avalanche of (mostly minor, but still 'you did X wrong') PR comments come in.

But if you're the reviewer - be sure to comment on nifty things in the code also. Call out that neat usage of struct as a switch or the context manager, or even praise base understanding of the problem flow.

Mixing praise in with the (hopefully constructive) criticism can go a loooong way toward building a healthy team environment. And - Suprise! - you'll find you actually get invited to that beer lunch instead of always being bitched about at it.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#86

Post by Madmallard » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #77

whatshisface wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego…

nah people know when they’re sucking and you just look patronizing talking like that

ever play any competitive games? theres nothing you can say directly to a person when they screw up. you have to just have to ignore and focus on the gameplay. saying anything to them raises the likelihood of a negative outcome.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#87

Post by matwood » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:07 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #9

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

I think the OP confused 2 states. One is bad, and it's important to let the person know it didn't meet standard for whatever reason. Use all the normal communication styles for that.

The other is, it wasn't done how I would do it, but isn't necessarily bad. That's when I would use the approach you have an issue with.

In a lot of engineering there is no right answer, only different tradeoffs. It could certain be that the reviewer isn't seeing a tradeoff that the writer saw, etc...

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#88

Post by lelandbatey » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

user_named wrote: post #43

thenose wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.

No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.

It's not intended to be manipulative or lying, it's meant as shorthand for saying:

"I've reviewed your work and I have feedback. To begin, I genuinely find X and Y facets of your work to be good and well done. I am here to praise you for that work. I also found P and Q to be deficient in ways A and B; unless there are additional factors I do not understand, I recommend making changes G and K to areas P and Q."

But that's a lot of words framed very stiffly, and despite being framed extremely flatly, may still be received poorly. Hence why folks go for the much shorter and less formal "I really liked X and Y, have you thought about approaching P and Q with technique G and K?"

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#89

Post by cacois » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #9

gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

I've often phrased it closer to "I like how much effort you put into this. You clearly put some thought in, did you consider this approach?"

I don't have to say I liked the solution to appreciate the effort and dedication.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#90

Post by sequoia » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

    benefit of starting to give feedback if you're not already:
    ============================== - a lot
    risk that giving feedback without asking that hurts the recipient:
    == - very small
    0 ---------------------------- a lot

If you are trying to follow this advice but are scared your feedback might "backfire," see the infographic above. The risk is non-zero, but the takeaway here should be "you should start giving feedback" not "feedback might backfire and hurt the person!" The benefits of giving more praise to managers far far outstrips the risk of misplaced praise.

So: when in doubt, go for it! Asking can help, I usually send the person my feedback first if I'm unsure & ask if they want to revise it in some way. If they want to refocus on something else, that's fine. The point of it is to express gratitude & help them out.