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How to Apologize

philomousos.blogspot.com

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Re: How to Apologize

#71

Post by Duff »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

Crafting the perfect apology is fine, but you need to consider whether there is value in doing so.

Are the people whom you are offending by acting like a fratboy really going to believe that you have "seen the light"? The apology these guys wrote basically says "sorry, we thought this was funny"... which is really just creating more problems.

I'd argue that this affair validates a rule my grandfather had: When you say something really dumb, the smart move is to stop talking.

Re: How to Apologize

#72

Post by cheez »

kaens wrote: post #68
cheez wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. Is there something wrong with wanting women around? I've seen actual sexism in the workplace but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.

But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. I'm a man, a mostly hetero-normative one, who disagrees. The idea that there is something undesirable about a situation that gets it called a sausage fest is not about being male per se, it's part of a very large set of assumptions about gender and sexuality that are fairly pervasive and ingrained and present enough that they are part of identity for a lot of people. Th…

Dude, we work all day with a bunch of other men. It's boring as hell.

If we can get some women in the context of our passions, that is awesome.

You sound like someone who is apologetic about their manhood, to be honest. It's unfortunate. Look up Bill Maher's rant about the feminizing of America.

Re: How to Apologize

#73

Post by cheez »

brown9-2 wrote: post #69
cheez wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. Is there something wrong with wanting women around? I've seen actual sexism in the workplace but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.

Assuming that all of your attendees will be men, and that all of your attendees will find the presence of friendly women a perk, seems sexist.

If they prefer men, that's already handled. So what's your point?

I see what you mean though. Increasingly, there are a lot of professional women in these things. Might be a tad insulting.

Eventually, they'll have to start hiring stud muffins to compensate I guess!

Re: How to Apologize

#74

Post by mistercow »

cheez wrote: post #51

I like chicks. What's the problem with chicks? Oh right, I can't say that I like chicks. That's sexist.

No, saying that you like chicks is not sexist. Implying that women are for getting beer is sexist. Saying that the presence of hired female staff is a "perk" is sexist.

Re: How to Apologize

#75

Post by cheez »

mikeash wrote: post #64
cheez wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. Is there something wrong with wanting women around? I've seen actual sexism in the workplace but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.

There's nothing wrong with it, certainly. However, the correct way to have women around at your conference is to make your conference interesting to women in the field , not hire them to serve beer. From the perspective of wanting women around, this "perk" basically says that they've given up on getting women in the field to want to come to their conference, and the only way to get them there is to hire them. It's pr…

This, I agree with. My job is not to change society though. My job is to enjoy my life and guide my kids. That's it. And I'll enjoy it more with some nice women around.

Re: How to Apologize

#76

Post by brown9-2 »

cheez wrote: post #73
brown9-2 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that all of your attendees will be men, and that all of your attendees will find the presence of friendly women a perk, seems sexist.

If they prefer men, that's already handled. So what's your point? I see what you mean though. Increasingly, there are a lot of professional women in these things. Might be a tad insulting. Eventually, they'll have to start hiring stud muffins to compensate I guess!

but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.

Sure, that's being (heterosexual) male, but you are making the same assumption as the original event-planners did: all of our attendees will be male. There is nothing in the subject material of the event (their API discussion or whatever) that would interest a female.

This is the thinking that strikes me as sexist: all developers are male, so we only need to appeal to males to make our events appealing.

Re: How to Apologize

#77

Post by hellweaver666 »

kyberias wrote: post #44
samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

> However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. I think this opinion is wrong. If one expresses his opinion about slavery, he should not be fired. Now that you had this wrong opinion about opinions, should you be fired? From work? From Hacker News? Anywhere?

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion and they shouldn't be ostracised for expressing them. There is no such thing as a wrong opinion, only opinions that you disagree with.

Re: How to Apologize

#78

Post by cheez »

mistercow wrote: post #74
cheez wrote: post #51

I like chicks. What's the problem with chicks? Oh right, I can't say that I like chicks. That's sexist.

No, saying that you like chicks is not sexist. Implying that women are for getting beer is sexist. Saying that the presence of hired female staff is a "perk" is sexist.

Why? I enjoy women.

Re: How to Apologize

#79

Post by hythloday »

deanproxy wrote: post #61
hythloday wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that quote is out-of-context to the point of disingenuousness. Women are listed as one of the "great perks" that (male?) attendees can enjoy: https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p...

Ah, Thank you! That definitely brings a lot more context into it and I can see how some may get offended by it. I still question whether this is offensive to myself. Compared to the ads I hear on the radio and TV for local clubs and bars and how they're touting their female attendance or "hot bar tenders" as a reason to come, this seems relatively tame to that...

Don't take this as a dig at you, but I think that's a very revealing comparison. A hackathon is a professional event; people go there to code, not to hook up. Men are largely immune to being propositioned in professional spaces, partly because it just doesn't happen and partly because men perceive public space as "theirs" (there's research to show that women don't). So the cost to men of presenting this as a sexualized event is virtually nil or slightly positive. The cost to women, on the other hand, is phenomenal, because not only does it signal that this is an event where they'll be assessed by their tits rather than ability, but that the organizers of the event are likely to be indifferent or overtly hostile to problems of sexual harassment.

This is often a gedanken experiment that's often as distracting as it is illumination, but (assuming you're a straight man), imagine that 90% of programmers are gay or bisexual, and that one of the few hackathons available to you advertises itself by promising that "beefcake hunks" will fetch you drinks (which is just a couple of points down from the "massage" perk). Would that change your perception of the expected atmosphere of the hackathon?

Re: How to Apologize

#80

Post by tbsdy »

rbarooah wrote: post #7
tbsdy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent point... but to be honest, if every company reacted like this when they screwed up it wouldn't actually be a bad thing :-)

It would if it was just a rote statement that they hadn't thought about. A bit like the call centers which effusively state "I'd be more than happy to help you with that" after each thing you say to them.

I don't think they can do rote statements. They have to explain what caused the problem, explain what they are going to do to prevent the issue occuring again and admit that they cocked up. Nothing really very rote about that!
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