When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#211

Post by ori_b » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

eweise wrote: post #157

ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

I don't think I've seen this style of communication generally work as a viable substitute for social skills and good will towards colleagues.

Wrapping of criticism in praise is a poor substitute for genuinely praising good work, and being empathetic and helpful with direct, unambiguous feedback when someone can improve. Mistakes are inevitable. They're not a problem. It's ok to discuss them directly.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#212

Post by mulmen » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #203

mulmen wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree and have worked in multiple environments where your actions would have harmed me personally. Your manager is never your friend. All relationships with management are adversarial. It’s like talking to the police. Do not volunteer information. You don’t know where other people are, always obtain consent.

> Do not volunteer information. Well, I guess where you worked was either stack ranked or a generally oppressive atmosphere smothered in politics. Work should be a collaborative effort, even from the greedy billionaire perspective you hire 2 people to do twice the work. If you end up being 25% efficient something is wrong. And this is a sort of odd angle to begin with: your work isn't private to the manager stack. So…

That all sounds and feels nice but is divorced from reality. It is admirable to want to improve working conditions but you should consider the effect on your peers when you take that stand.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#213

Post by gabereiser » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:53 PM UTC

borroka wrote: post #129

ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

It is the HR-motivated eternal infantilization of the people. In fact, to the person who went through mental and physical developments with no blockages or traumas, it comes across as a quite paternalistic way of communicating, but it is a style liked and embraced by corporate coaches, HR, and the informal CYA policies.

I disagree. Rather strongly actually. I’ve had bad managers that couldn’t communicate. I’ve been that manager. I’ve learned how to communicate to be more effective with others. Everyone has blockages and traumas (especially now). It’s important to use those in context and draw from that experience. It’s not HR motivated, it’s a style of empathetic communication.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#214

Post by gabereiser » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:55 PM UTC

f1shy wrote: post #178

ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

>> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” So, basically lie in the face. How could that be good advice?! If I do not like it, I would just say it. One thing is being polite, other completely different to be a liar.

How is that praise?

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#215

Post by nemetroid » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:56 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #176

nemetroid wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's right there in the description of the situation. You didn't like it: "If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, ...".

There's a spectrum of "like" and "didn't like", you know. Have you ever truly come across a situation with a co-worker where there was no redeedming quality in their code review?

> Have you ever truly come across a situation with a co-worker where there was no redeedming quality in their code review?

This is irrelevant. Calling out specific parts as good is a great idea, if nothing else as clarification of what in particular it was that you didn't like. This is not what people are arguing against.

In the example under discussion, the judgement of the work as a whole was "bad", while the communication on the work as a whole was "I really liked your approach". This is not pointing out redeeming qualities, it's just dishonesty.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#216

Post by Mizoguchi » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:56 PM UTC

As member of an underrepresented group I would say stop over thinking about how you can help us. Just treat us equally, not worse not better. I personally cringe at people trying to make me feel "represented". I get it, you are trying to do something positive for me (and for yourself, let's no pretend it is not about you also) but if you are not careful you may end up annoying me and even doing/saying "racist" stuff, and 9/10 times you will. Like this super nice dude at work invited me to eat spicy food because he thought all Latinos like spicy food like Mexicans, or these guys at a bike shop near my home giving me a discount for being brown so that I could afford biking, despite the fact that I have a little fortune in pro mountain bikes in my garage.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#217

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #116

The comments here really demonstrate how this is a culturally-nuanced topic. FWIW, the author comes from a North-American background.

The comments here show they need to get a job that doesn't abuse them. You shouldn't be so scared of a compliment because it will be used against you by your boss or coworkers. You'll never get work done if you spend all your time looking over your back.

EDIT: looking through the 2020 thread, it's intersting how different the conversation went, especially wrt stack rankging. It felt like it was focusing more on process at companies. Here, it feels a lot more "personal". More about "well I just want it straight" or "compliments can inadvertently hurt people".

Can't call it better or worse objectively, but one feels a bit more surface level than the other.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#218

Post by gabereiser » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 7:59 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #109

boneitis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their point (in this discussion here) can make sense and remain true to the point (made in the example statement) by adjusting the feedback segue to something like "I really [appreciate that] you tackled this".

Yes, exactly, I agree. That's the point I've been trying (and obviously failing) to get through.

Tackling is analogous to achieving. To put effort into and complete. To complete a tough subject. “to seize, take hold of, or grapple with especially with the intention of stopping or subduing”

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#219

Post by nottheengineer » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

agloe_dreams wrote: post #5

I disagree with the angle on this about asking and how to go about things but mostly because complimenting in context is helpful. When someone does great work, tell everyone, not just their manager. Do it in public and clearly in standups after they talk about what they did last day/week. "I just want to mention, that work that Joe did on that module is fantastic, thanks!" It is so easy to be a force for good. Being…

I think this is more appropriate when talking to people that are on your level or below you.

The post is about compliments to managers and I think it's valid to ask in that case, especially in large companies where you might not know the people you work with very well.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#220

Post by bumby » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 8:04 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #155

bumby wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something to be said to adapting to the environment rather than expecting the environment to fit your whims. Sometimes you should change your approach in the vein of being more effective at your job. Most reasonably sized organizations are going to have a mixed of people with different preferences; jumping ship every time the culture doesn't meet your ideal seems like you may end up switching jobs often enoug…

There's also something to be said for not working in environments you dislike if you don't need to. Especially since cultural mismatches grate and lead to underperformance. Given that I have consistently gotten thanked for how I give and take feedback from colleagues, I think I will be fine on finding organizations that work for me culturally. (Edit: And no, that praise didn't contain "but I wish..."es.)

If you can find something fulfilling that is a good cultural fit, great. But lots of people get caught up in the "grass is always greener somewhere else" mentality and end up job swapping constantly to find some mythical culture that perfectly aligns with them. And maybe that works if your primary goal is what's in it for you. But it can also have the effect of minimizing your impact, which is counter-productive for a goal of contributing to something beyond yourself.

The point that may have gone missed in my original comment was the perspective was focused on "being effective" and not "working somewhere I like". One is somewhat selfish, the other is not.

FWIW, I'm not saying anyone should have to care about their impact. It's just ironic when I see people constantly job-hopping with the stated goal of finding a cultural fit so they can have said impact.