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When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

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Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#121

Post by freedomben »

BytesAndGears wrote: post #51
freedomben wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to be clear, I fully agree with this and your broader point. It's the specific verbiage in your first example that I think is problematic, mainly because it feels disingenuous and insincere at best, manipulative at worst. Which is highly unfortunate because I think the vast majority of the time the motives are pure!

It’s funny because I still feel the opposite of you — I think the example where you say that you like their solution is a better approach, as long as it’s not horrible. It leaves open the possibility that you as the reviewer are actually mistaken, and they possibly have a good reason for doing it that way. I may be the senior reviewing the junior’s code, but they probably spent longer looking at the problem than me a…

interesting indeed, thank you!

> It leaves open the possibility that you as the reviewer are actually mistaken, and they possibly have a good reason for doing it that way.

That's a great point. There must be room in this to cover that the person actually had good reasons that the asker doesn't know about. It's a hard needle to thread.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#122

Post by makeitdouble »

anon84873628 wrote: post #102
Madmallard wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nah people know when they’re sucking and you just look patronizing talking like that ever play any competitive games? theres nothing you can say directly to a person when they screw up. you have to just have to ignore and focus on the gameplay. saying anything to them raises the likelihood of a negative outcome.

That's just not true. What do you think happens when the catcher goes to talk to the pitcher? It's not just strategy. "Good eye" "good hustle" "you got this" "we got em on the next one"-- good teammates find lots of ways to support their teammates and keep morale up.

I think the point behind this discussion is that people will take external input in very different ways, and if you spent some time with your colleage/teammate hopefully you found a way that works for them. There will definitely be catchers that tell you to fuck off if you come to them and they already know what you're trying to say.

Praise sandwitches for some, straight requests for other, no direct communication in some cases etc. it needs to be tailored and not a recipe.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#123

Post by jasonlotito »

ori_b wrote: post #76
gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

> I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

"I don't want to work with people efficiently, and would rather cling to inefficient ways."

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#124

Post by staunton »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #98
whatshisface wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.

But what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.

So, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#125

Post by anon84873628 »

skrebbel wrote: post #107
anon84873628 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?

Im not the GP but it hides all clarity wrt how important the colleague thinks the “directions” that the praise came along with are. If I accept the praise but dismiss the directions, am I being an asshole? Or am I being subordinate? Am I ignoring a direct order? The boss was in the room and they didn’t object to the directions! What does it all mean ? All this is a level of 4D interpersonal chess that you’re forcing…

Fair point. I think it comes down to knowing your audience, which is always the most fundamental and important part. Coworkers with lots of rapport can be very direct with each other. Or a neurodivergent person who struggles with social/verbal cues may be much better served with succinct direct feedback (and likewise not feel the sting and demotivation that the initial strategy is intended to avoid)

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#126

Post by lemmsjid »

whatshisface wrote: post #9
gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

I think it's important not to lie, but I don't think the above is automatically a lie. Instead, it's a call to evaluate people on multiple dimensions rather than one.

When you're giving feedback to someone, it is often a knee jerk thing to ONLY evaluate the outcome of their work. The other thing you should evaluate, though, is your estimation of their effort, e.g. how hard they worked at it, and your estimation of their process, e.g. how well they used their time.

If you only evaluate the outcome of their work, and the work is not adequate, you have given them a purely negative evaluation. If you acknowledge respect for their toil and their process, then you have given them 2 positive evaluations and 1 negative evaluation. You're also acknowledging that because you respect their toil and process, they are doing the right thing in spite of needing the course correction you are providing.

Of course, maybe you have a negative opinion on all 3 aspects of the evaluation. If you think they didn't apply themselves, e.g. their effort was not good enough, AND you think they were't efficient in their process, AND you think the outcome was bad, then certainly it would be a lie to praise any of those aspects, though at that point there's almost certainly something more fundamental that's going on and the person is not a good fit for the job.

Finally, it's important to evaluate your own sense of certainty about the feedback.

I think the important thing about the above advice is that if you are giving feedback and you only focus on the course correction part, it's safe to assume that most people will take that as negative feedback on all the aspects of their work. Now, there are situations and teams where there is so much trust built up around everyone's mutual respect that you can skip to the outcome feedback. There are also feedback-recipients who are confident enough in themselves that they feel that they don't need anything but correctional feedback. In other words, "This was shit!" can totally fly when there's a lot of mutual trust and confidence. But too often I've seen people misread the room in that aspect: THEY, the feedback-givers, have plenty of psychological safety, and they think that is extended to other people who absolutely don't feel that way.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#127

Post by conception »

esafak wrote: post #118
ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

That's a cultural and personal thing. Consider the recipient's preferences. If you would like to learn about these cultural preferences, read Erin Meyer's The Culture Map . https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/

This is why the Golden Rule is wrong. Not “Do unto others as you would have them to do to you.” but instead “Do unto others how they uhh want to be done unto.” Different folks, different strokes.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#128

Post by jasonlotito »

function_seven wrote: post #103
anon84873628 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?

I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.

Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with?

That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#129

Post by borroka »

ori_b wrote: post #76
gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

It is the HR-motivated eternal infantilization of the people. In fact, to the person who went through mental and physical developments with no blockages or traumas, it comes across as a quite paternalistic way of communicating, but it is a style liked and embraced by corporate coaches, HR, and the informal CYA policies.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#130

Post by esafak »

conception wrote: post #127
esafak wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a cultural and personal thing. Consider the recipient's preferences. If you would like to learn about these cultural preferences, read Erin Meyer's The Culture Map . https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/

This is why the Golden Rule is wrong. Not “Do unto others as you would have them to do to you.” but instead “Do unto others how they uhh want to be done unto.” Different folks, different strokes.

Some call that the Platinum Rule.
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