If people need a guide for an apology then I would question it's sincerity.
How to Apologize
21–30 of 179 posts
Re: How to Apologize
#22This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…
In the case of wanting to bring back slavery, you'd be unable to successfully apologize. You may as well tell people that Hitler was your father and you were proud of him in that case, because you'll never be totally forgiven. At some point, it might be best to give your best apology as stated in the post, but assume that you will not be able to recover from the leg down your throat.
Part of his point, I think, is that holding an opinion does not harm anyone. Would it be an offensive opinion? Yes. Are you right that there are a bunch of people who would be very angry about it? Yes. And that those people would likely never forgive someone who thought slavery should be brought back? Yes.
There's also nothing to forgive the person with the offensive opinion for, other than offending someone. I don't think that the opinion-holder would have a right to not have that offense expressed, and I don't think people should have the right to hold and express any opinion with the expectation that no one will express offense, but I also don't think people have the right to not be offended.
Re: How to Apologize
#23"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offend…
Thinking about how others may react before speaking is part of our DNA, it's not some new idea. What we think about evolves, but the basic principle is as old as humanity. I call it "being considerate," as in considering the effect our choices may have before we make them.
Re: How to Apologize
#24This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…
I think the driving point, which you allude to is that apologies should be honest. There's a minor point in there somewhere about how wording apologies in terms of the receiver-of-offense is a common tactic for people who care most about what the average person thinks of them. In this case, I can just barely see this being done by someone who was totally aware of how what they posted sounds, but forgot that the conte…
Agreed.
Interesting sidebar here about John Nash, the famous mathematician. Nash, as you may know, suffered from what was probably paranoid schizophrenia. He had the most severe delusions which crippled his work.
Later in life he managed to get along. After watching the movie I did a little research. As I understood it, Nash basically said that the delusions never went away, and he really didn't stop believing in them, but he learned to live with them and express them in a way that allowed his life to continue. He felt that either way could be true -- the things he suspected or the reality others descried to him. Therefore it was inappropriate to make a big deal out of it. He kept the same useless and perhaps personally dangerous opinions, but he learned to adjust his actions so that he could continue being a functioning part of society.
Very interesting outcome. I think you only get there by encouraging people, not by shaming or ostracizing them. It could have worked out very differently for Nash.
Re: How to Apologize
#25Re: How to Apologize
#26"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offend…
Please read the whole context: https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p...
"Women" are being presented in a list of "great perks" -- along with "food trucks", "top shelf booze", and "dark chocolate". This is pretty much a textbook example of objectification.
This sort of objectification and othering is part of what keeps women out of tech, and that's a loss to everyone. More women joining our community means more people in our community, and that's a win for everyone.
>I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line.
Have you actually asked any women who work in tech about what it's like? Spending just a little time listening to what women in our industry think about the culture can be an eye-opening experience.
I'm not doubting that you can find women who aren't offended by this, but that's quite beside the point. It's essentially the "I have black friends so how can I be racist!?" defense — so laughable that Colbert uses it as a running gag on his program.
> So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offended.
If you think sexist and racist jokes are acceptable then yes, you probably should think twice before making jokes.
Re: How to Apologize
#27This is a very interesting topic. The thing is that an apology doesn't really make any sense unless the person offering it is actually sorry (for what happened, not that they got caught). I see three different kinds of cases: 1) You do something that has a consequence that you didn't intend and you immediately regret it, like spilling coffee on someone. 2) You say or do something that you don't find offensive until y…
I am not known for being very politically correct, but I disagree with your assessment of #3. Some people just don't know where the line is and continually cross it, and that is not ok, but they shouldn't fail to apologize and they should try to learn from their mistakes if possible, and if not possible they should avoid situations that lead to #3.
Re: How to Apologize
#28I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…
Sadly, we don't live in "a world where people aren't putting pornography on their slide presentations" — we live in a world where it happens pretty regularly. Sexism is deeply embedded in the culture of the software industry; in that context, there isn't really any such thing as a "harmless joke". These "jokes" continually reinforce the thought that women aren't welcome in our community.
Re: How to Apologize
#29> Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.
I must have missed this entire story, but is this really a line that people are upset over?
Can someone explain why? Maybe I'm not reading into it enough or there is some missing context? To me it seems like they're just saying another female will get them a beer if they want one. How is that offensive?
Re: How to Apologize
#30I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…
Sadly, we don't live in "a world where people aren't putting pornography on their slide presentations" — we live in a world where it happens pretty regularly. Sexism is deeply embedded in the culture of the software industry; in that context, there isn't really any such thing as a "harmless joke". These "jokes" continually reinforce the thought that women aren't welcome in our community.
Maybe the women need to come back and make fun of these people for being shitty at humor. EDIT: I dunno, I'd just hate to have to resort to being uptight as a solution. Plus it could backfire.