How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#181

Post by havblue » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

markus_zhang wrote: post #92

Chinese people are seeing the same decline of birth and marriage. Part of that contributes to better life but I'd say the majority is because of Capitalism. This form of Capitalism is initiated by the government so there is not much to check its power. Essentially, if you look at housing, cost of education and cost of medical services, you will understand why middle class in China does not want to give birth to child…

I'll note that this isn't intended to start a political argument, but I'm confused when people blame capitalism, even in countries that are themselves communist. What does this even mean? Are we blaming the global market economy? What would the solution be then, severely limit trade between countries?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#182

Post by WanderPanda » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #180

justrealist wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the incentives could be fixed in a simple (not easy) way, by not letting childless people benefit from the safety net spanned by children of other people. Yeah this is the only serious fix, but once childless people become a large % of the electorate (aka it's a real problem), they can vote against assuming responsibility for the problem they created... and your country is basically in an inescapable doom l…

That'd be an extremely complicated fix though. Are sterile people automatically excluded from old age benefits? What about someone who suffered from assault and finds reproduction traumatic? What about someone who simply finds reproduction repulsive? What about conscientious objectors who think that over population is a serious issue and refuse on moral grounds? What about people with disorders or genetic aberrations…

First of all there is still adoption for many of the points you raise. Secondly, is it justified to risk societal collapse to right these naturally occurring wrongs/unjustnesses? It‘s a hard question especially because we don‘t/can‘t have a sound theory that predicts the future. I believe only society/country scale evolution can figure this out.

IMO thats btw. one of the downsides of the EU, eliminating the differences/competition between countries stalling this kind of evolutionary truth seeking process

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#183

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 11:15 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #140

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?

One of the big blockers is cost of daycare. Some countries but not the US subsidize daycare. Childcare is over 10% of median income in a lot of counties: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-fami... There is also a shortage of daycare places because it is a fairly low paying, high stress job. Anecdotally I know some people who have quit their job because that is easier than arranging daycare.

Sorry, what is the connection between US housing regulation and the cost of daycare?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#184

Post by thegreenswede » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 11:39 PM UTC

seydor wrote: post #139

thegreenswede wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Are you korean?

No but I replied to your comment before it was updated I think. It only said 'life is maybe too good for kids anymore' when I saw it but now I see more text.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#185

Post by bobthepanda » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 12:09 AM UTC

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #183

bobthepanda wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big blockers is cost of daycare. Some countries but not the US subsidize daycare. Childcare is over 10% of median income in a lot of counties: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-fami... There is also a shortage of daycare places because it is a fairly low paying, high stress job. Anecdotally I know some people who have quit their job because that is easier than arranging daycare.

Sorry, what is the connection between US housing regulation and the cost of daycare?

Whoops, I misread before my coffee and thought they were talking about capitalism generally.

---

One critique of capitalism for housing, is that private housing doesn't get built in a bust cycle, or generally when it's no longer profitable to do so. The recent boom can be traced back largely to supply not recovering to pre-2007 levels, and the market being unable to make up for lost time. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST

I am not aware of a housing market that is nearly all private that has built its way to affordability, short of massive economic collapse (e.g. '90s Japan) or some other catastrophic event.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#186

Post by HelloMcFly » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:28 AM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #13

HelloMcFly wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> western style feminist politics Care to explain precisely what you mean in this context? Because it's hard not to see this as a dog-whistle for "why can't women just be happy with the caretaker role?" but perhaps you mean something more benign.

I'm just reporting what I've been told by Koreans I've met. The problem doesn't seem to exist in older generations. Happy if Koreans could chime in.

> I'm just reporting what I've been told by Koreans I've met.

Korean men, I've no doubt.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#187

Post by seoulmetro » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:30 AM UTC

duchenne wrote: post #94

This sounds like a study made from afar by just reading numbers without even talking to Koreans. When I talk to Korean parents, the vast majority of them tell me that raising even one kid is exhausting. They usually try as much as possible to satisfy every requests of their baby: carrying the toddlers for hours until they fall sleep, letting their kids sleep in the parents bed until they're 6, spoon-feeding them unti…

That's entirely to be expected when your plan hinges around having one kid. They're called little emperors for a reason. If you have more than one kid, Korean or not, you treat them less preciously.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#188

Post by throwaway6734 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:39 AM UTC

kredd wrote: post #116

sho_hn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But…

People have lived through plague, famine, mass deaths caused by invasion, etc and still manage to raise and pass the torch to the next generation.

Get over yourself.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#189

Post by throwaway6734 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:42 AM UTC

thegreenswede wrote: post #32

seydor wrote: post #25

Life may be too good for kids anymore The article has curiously little about what koreans actually want, vs what the author thinks is stopping them (despite their burning desire) to have kids. After all, as the article says the birthrate went way down a long time ago thus it's likely that people would know by now what is stopping them from having more kids

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

>And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker,

What's your salary compared to the median household income in your area? How do other people make it work?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#190

Post by throwaway6734 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:44 AM UTC

If there is any genetic component to wanting children, this will hopefully work itself out over a few generations as the bloodlines of people that don't want children die off.