Are there any highly developed cultures with a high birth rate? US Mormons and US Christians maybe?
Israel comes to mind.
How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
131–140 of 439 posts
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed completely, but I’ll add another point. About 50% of my friends are university+ educated women of different ethnicities, but all living in first world countries. We’re also all in our late 20s or 30s, so it’s becoming a “now or never” kind of dilemma for some of them. We used to make “oh it’s expensive!” excuse until we started making decent money. Now that excuse doesn’t work, but there has been a significant…
See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…
Raising a child is a whole lifestyle change. It's a long term commitment and a whole shift in almost every priority in your life. Viewing child care as some challenge that only non-lazy people do is quite a stretch.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wife dropped out of the workforce for our kids in the US and then wanted to go back to work once they were more independent. It's not that we couldn't make it work financially. Anecdotally, I was against us having the second child. I wanted my wife to head back to work once my elder child was 3. There were a bunch of reasons she had dropped out but she had liked her job. She was lucky but not everyone is.
May I ask why you didn’t want a second kid, and why you wanted your wife to go back to work before your child was kinder age (4/5)?
1. Gap between the two kids. We've generally observed that the best gap for siblings to bond is when they're within 4 yrs of each other. This isn't some great research but we just observed it in our friend circle.
2. We had excellent childcare close by, as in 5 minutes from home. I had flexible and remote work and would have been able to drop and pick my child up. I also had a provision where I could write the child care off my taxes.
She finally went back to work when my little one was 8. She did go back when the little one was 3 but had to drop out again because of a health issue with the little one.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.
Then why does the birth rate steadily go down as you move up the income curve? My experience is that my wealthy adult peer group just has almost no interest in having children while my high school friends, many struggling badly financially, all already have families.
If you're poor, children make you more poor. If you're tenuously upwardly-mobile, children can derail you into being poor.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#135[flagged]
This is a contributing factor, for sure, but even in European countries with strong social safety nets and pro natalist policies (going so far as to pay cash for kids you have), the fertility rate declines. Why? Empowered, educated women delay having children, have less overall, or have none. When they have access to contraceptives and opportunity, the fertility rate falls below replacement rate. It also happens when…
To some degree I think it may be subconsciously capitalist factors as well. Wealthy European countries have expensive housing. And most people aspire to a nursery room for a baby and later a separate room for the child, but then you have to upgrade your living situation to include another room at great expense.
Think about the last time you saw a tv show set in the current time where children are in a bunk bed in a single room. I can’t really think of any.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…
> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But…
I have never seen this sort of extreme existential pessimism in real life (not online). Altering major life decisions like having children based on fears of a negative future. Im not sure if its just more commonly expressed online or if its more common in other place (Europe maybe?) or different age groups (teens or young adults?) but if I asserted this to people locally they would think im nuts.
Another possibility is this isn’t actually the difference between you wanting kids or not. Perhaps this is an oversimplified reason, but Im taking you at your word.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…
Raising a child is a whole lifestyle change. It's a long term commitment and a whole shift in almost every priority in your life. Viewing child care as some challenge that only non-lazy people do is quite a stretch.
You have to see it in context: I'm wondering what leads specifically people who feel that generally speaking they could afford to have children and direction change if they wanted to, to prefer one set of priorities and experiences over another.
Keep in mind I'm responded to a comment that speculated on which choices lead to a "more fulfilling" life, which means it's a decision couched in a certain amount of safety and freedom. IMHO that set direction a bit and begged the question.
If you make it specifically about "more fulfilling", other branches of discussion (e.g. whether having children is a good idea for them or the planet) are at least partially taken off the table already. If you decide against children for one of those reasons, you don't even need to feel addressed.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. As a man, I’m looking for an independent woman with a good income, because I don’t want to get gutted in a divorce. I’d love to be a SAHD, but it’s difficult for me to find single women with comparable income.
> My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. But her finances arent the problem here. Its how high expenses are. Her job could pay 150k/yr or 20k/yr but the situation is the same when she quits. Its good that she at least makes enough money that it justifies working if she wants to.
Yes, she could quit her job, move to Appalachia, her husband earn $20k/yr, and grow her own food. But that’s a huge lifestyle reduction. What does retirement and end-of-life healthcare look like if she and her husband make $20k/yr?
I think what’s more important is income vs local population income. In SF, she probably earns 3-4x everyone in SF or 10x nationally. In a low cost of area place, her husband’s income might only be 1.5x more, leaving less money for retirement and child care.
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#139Life may be too good for kids anymore The article has curiously little about what koreans actually want, vs what the author thinks is stopping them (despite their burning desire) to have kids. After all, as the article says the birthrate went way down a long time ago thus it's likely that people would know by now what is stopping them from having more kids
No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.
Are you korean?
Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s
#140[flagged]
My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?
One of the big blockers is cost of daycare. Some countries but not the US subsidize daycare.
Childcare is over 10% of median income in a lot of counties: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-fami...
There is also a shortage of daycare places because it is a fairly low paying, high stress job.
Anecdotally I know some people who have quit their job because that is easier than arranging daycare.