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My Caste

cs.toronto.edu

301–310 of 451 posts

Re: My Caste

#301
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one wants to talk about the giant elephant in the room: reservation system vs. competence. Go to any govt office: the chief of some division is incompetent, some low-level clerk does the heavy lifting. Of course, this low-level clerk happens to be from non-reserved category, as both recruitment and promotions in the government are driven by reservations. Why people (both reserved and non-reserved) send their kids…

> Go to any govt office: the chief of some division is incompetent, some low-level clerk does the heavy lifting. For the majority of the time since 1947, it was the non-reserved "competent" class of people who were in charge of government institutions. Even today, I can easily walk into a government office and find some "competent" class officer whose only interest is in milking as much money as he can out of the cit…

Corruption is NOT confined to one class, one caste, one set (random vs. non-random), one alumni association, one group (competent vs. incompetent). This issue is orthogonal to competence: one can be corrupt irrespective of competence.

People recruited in state services (just like UPSC) are promoted to IAS/IPS. When these promoted IAS/IPS officers want postings as district magistrates (collectors) or superintendents of police for districts, the chief secretary or the DGP want bribes; otherwise, they are posted in loop-line (like special project director for land acquisition or railways SP). Add this to sycophancy in India: this sycophancy is there since Islam Rule, then continued into British Raj, now post-Independence India. Every subordinate officer, while treating his/her subordinates as trash, salutes his/her superior. Sycophancy and corruption are deeply related, and collusion between bureaucracy and politicians adds flavor to this mix.

Re: My Caste

#302
As a fellow OBC, I am not sure I like the idea of reclaiming caste.

The author wrote his post from an inspiring standpoint, so my comment does not come from a place of criticism. His achievement is worth celebrating on its own grounds.

____

It's been 6 years for me in the US, and no one has asked me my caste. Even in India, the only time someone could have inferred my caste, was when someone indirectly asked my university JEE (SAT) scores in my first few weeks of freshman year. My scores were as high as 'general' (upper class) candidates, so they'd quickly assess me as 'one who deserves his spot here'. Still, I was pretty transparent about my caste status. Afterall, I was one of the lucky few who'd never been discriminated on caste. Hell, I didn't know I belonged to the umbrella term 'OBC' until I started filling out application forms for universities.

Their inquiry, it was less so malice, and more so a sense of unfairness about a system that was supposed to be strictly meritocratic. But a few weeks side-by-side in a dorm made everyone intimately aware of the poverty of the lowest class. Soon, no one would dare think that the barely-English-conversant SC/ST, who came from a town without running water, was on the same level playing field as them. There were admittedly a few grifters and abusers of this system. All castes were equally bewildered by that group.

The Indian-American diaspora in the US remains untarnished by caste (Can't comment on Canada). I make this as both of statement of faith, anecdotal personal experience and a statically aligned truth seeker. OBC is an artificially created term from less than 100 years ago. The communities have nothing in common, except a tag of underdevelopment forced onto us.

The vast vast majority of Indians in the US are upper caste and the vast majority of tall NBA players had access to protein growing up. SC/ST communities and many poor OBC communities are backwards because their problems begin at nutrition, K-12 schooling and cultural emphasis on lower-income professions. By the time you make it to freshman year of college, you have mostly risen past the burden of your caste. This also means, that trying to increase visibility of the community at the highest levels, does diddly-squat for those grappling with crippling poverty and the worst of caste discrimination.

Leaving outrage-driving topics like IQ, discrimination and generational trauma aside for a minute, vast statistical gaps within communities can still manifest due to emergent properties of systems converging to their nearest stable state.

Caste discrimination is terrible in lower-class India. People actively try to move beyond Caste in middle class India. Caste is unheard of in upper class India. And the upper-most caste of operates at the family level, deeming everyone from their own caste and otherwise to be similarly 'pedestrian'. American immigration policy ensures that only middle and upper class Indian can move to the US. This means that every Indian who arrives in the US, is preconditioned to want to move past caste.

Re: My Caste

#303
I recently read a scholarly treatment on the subject of sati and whether it was really as widespread and pernicious as the colonising Empire claimed that it was. The verdict was: no, absolutely not.

Now I have to wonder about the caste system: this only came to the attention of outsiders and Westerners while the Empire was systematically destroying India, in terms of economy, morale, and unity.

What would have happened if the colonisers had not invaded, left India intact, and the inhabitants left to their own self-determination? Would caste discrimination be noticed here in North America? Would the Indian government, untainted by Western influences, be trying vainly to stamp it out and overcompensate with affirmative action and quotas? It really makes you wonder.

Re: My Caste

#304
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I think your mother's attitude is shared by the vast majority of Indian-Americans, and even first-generation Indian immigrants like me. In India, there are egregious things reminding you about it, i.e. literally every government form ever -- but in the US it's reasonably easy to ignore and forget about completely unless you go out initiating conversations about it, or are unlucky enough to run in…

As an American Indian I found the whole asking of race in government forms to be a bit crazy. I usually end up putting “N/A” or equivalent.

If it's a drop-down, then I refuse to self-identify.

If it's a blank to fill in, then I write "Irish/Scottish".

It's never a blank.

Re: My Caste

#305
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a shallow argument. For starters, the guy did get his tenure, which implies that caste did not have a negative impact in the decision.

You're right, yours is a very shallow argument. Unless you can reveal anything about the inner workings of the tenure board, you are taking your impression of a broad organisation and applying it to a specific department, a management structure and a board for which you are ignorant. Please don't make sweeping generalisations and minimise the position of the author unless you have actual knowledge that might let you…

If we are being pedantic, the burden of proof does not lie on me.

I didn't publish AND promote a blog post where I feared not getting my current job because of some social dynamic that happens to exist 12,500km from where I am right now.

You should ask OP to provide evidence of caste discrimination in Canada, at this particular University.

Re: My Caste

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Buddhism came about primarily as a response to Hindu orthodoxy and the caste system. AFAIK, it did not. It came about from the Buddha's teachings, which were not about caste, but about suffering and its cessation via attaining nirvana (but I am not an expert on Buddhism; we only learned some about it in school). My guess is that, instead, later, many people may have converted to it, maybe some due to orthodoxy. I am…

I can go into great detail on the back and forth between Hinduism and Buddhism, mostly surviving as dueling literature for centuries. I would prefer you just look it up though.

I would prefer you to understand that, in the absence of any objective measure, my sources are as good as yours, or, equivalently, yours are as bad as mine. But, based on what you wrote above, I doubt you can (understand).

Your above point itself proves what I said: "dueling literature"! Heh.

Re: My Caste

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have several Indian friends I've made during my stay here, and not a single time has the issue of caste has come up to be discussed. I'm guessing it's not discussed at great length and not discussed with non-Indian people at all unless you brimg it up.

If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. Non-Indians literally don't care, and very (very) few Indians actually do (at least in Canada).

The issue is not with the non-Indians, at least not directly. And with the Indians, it's that a few do, have moved to positions of responsibility, and can influence opinion enough to make life difficult (at least that is my external view).

Google and Cisco's issues last year [1] [2] made a lot of folks aware that something was inside a lot of big tech because of all the H1B's, foreign hiring, outsourcing, ect... The behavior was being brought over from India and then existing in the corporate ladder. (avoiding the word "hide")

It's also subtle. It's not, "you're dalit, act like a dalit." It's leaving you out of meetings, getting assignments that don't matter, not listening when you talk. It's a bit like a dance. They don't sneer at you, they don't act openly racist, they just don't dance with you. "why are you touching me?"

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-pr...

[2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/big-techs-big-pro...

Re: My Caste

#308
post #298
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it was 100% women, or 100% Black?

What if they were 100% Gelgameks? It's a nonsense question because at any large tech co, there aren't any engineering teams that are 100% women or Black. I don't believe that's a reflection the skills of race or gender lacking, just that there aren't any tech co execs that would feel comfortable with that due to their own bias and overall corporate culture..

> What if they were 100% Gelgameks?

that's the nonsense question. This isn't 100%, but there were Google managers who prided themselves on having very disproportionately large numbers of black or female employees. SRE groups, especially.

In addition, there are plenty of teams that are almost all Chinese. Or Indian. Or, of course, white male.

Re: My Caste

#309
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go to any govt office: the chief of some division is incompetent, some low-level clerk does the heavy lifting. For the majority of the time since 1947, it was the non-reserved "competent" class of people who were in charge of government institutions. Even today, I can easily walk into a government office and find some "competent" class officer whose only interest is in milking as much money as he can out of the cit…

Corruption is NOT confined to one class, one caste, one set (random vs. non-random), one alumni association, one group (competent vs. incompetent). This issue is orthogonal to competence: one can be corrupt irrespective of competence. People recruited in state services (just like UPSC) are promoted to IAS/IPS. When these promoted IAS/IPS officers want postings as district magistrates (collectors) or superintendents o…

My point is why the enormous amount of energy directed at reservations when there are mountains of evidence that corruption is several orders of magnitude more destructive? It's an elephant vs an ant in the room thing. You ignore the elephant and think the ant is causing systemic malaise. Why is that?

Is it because Hindu dharma dictates that certain classes are meant to do certain jobs? Like a person availing reservation is born stupid - because of bad karma from a past life - and so can never learn how to do administrative work competently?

Re: My Caste

#310

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a…

I have followed this topic for some time out of curiosity. Every time I read an article I am left with the following impression: in America, caste issues are not explicitly mentioned to non-Indians, no matter how close their co-workers or friends are.
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