My Caste • Hacker News Board

Re: My Caste

#221

Post by kelnos » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:32 PM UTC

varunpant wrote: post #162

rhaway84773 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet 1 out of 180 CS professors are OBCs despite the population being over 40%. It’s probably closer to the welfare queen trope. Yeah, there are a few people who cheat the system, like any other system in the world. Thaw existence of cheaters does not negate the very real problems and challenges faced by the actual “victims”.

[flagged]

Right, they absolutely should fight for equal representation.

The numbers aren't always going to be exactly equal to representation, sure. But when you have a group that comprises 40% of society only represented by a half percent in prestigious university faculty positions, you need to step back and figure out what's going on there. These people are not genetically different or of lower intelligence; they've literally been not allowed to hold these positions even if they wanted them and could be qualified for them.

Frankly, your point of view is advocating for bigotry and oppression, and I suggest you re-evaluate why that is so.

Re: My Caste

#222

Post by moralestapia » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:32 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #211

moralestapia wrote: post #199

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a…

Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. That gives me the impression that you are not the target audience of this article, or someone that would be likely to notice these very subtle biases that exist in a different culture. Can you think of any very subtle racism/bias that exists in your culture, which foreigners may not be able to pick up on w…

>Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin.

Don't worry about that, I do well wherever I go.

That aside, I never wrote anything to discredit OPs personal story.

I just don't want readers to get the wrong impression from UofT.

Re: My Caste

#223

Post by tacker2000 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:32 PM UTC

LambdaComplex wrote: post #185

911e wrote: post #42

This caste problems continue in the US, instead of leaving behind such ridiculous biases it becomes a part of an US company… https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-pr...

Cisco has also had problems with caste discrimination in the recent past.

I interned there one summer about 10 yrs ago and i already noticed back then that some departments were composed either entirely of indians or chinese employees.

Re: My Caste

#224

Post by lowbloodsugar » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:33 PM UTC

b215826 wrote: post #103

.

I mean, thanks. This is poster child for the fact that not only is caste discrimination real, but it is full of entrenched people engaging in denial and propaganda to the level of Confederate "black people benefit from being slaves". Like, if anyone needed evidence to support OPs claim, your post is it.

Re: My Caste

#225

Post by lozenge » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:33 PM UTC

sharkjacobs wrote: post #32

curtisblaine wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you are from a lower caste but wear the white thread to misdirect? Or you lie about being / not being vegetarian by choice / at birth?

What happens if you lie on your resume? what if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms? The answer is yes, you can do these things, and it will confer exactly the benefits you imagine. And the consequences for getting "caug…

> What if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms?

> The answer is yes, you can do these things

I mean, I personally can't. (From a UK perspective.) First I would need access to these people and spend a lot of time with them. That could be difficult in itself if they are discriminatory. Then I would need another separate social group to practice my new personality with. Plus I'm just not a good actor. So it's not surprising that people's movement in social class is pretty limited. This isn't even getting into how people of your previous class will treat you if they think you've deserted them.

Re: My Caste

#226

Post by grad_ml » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:36 PM UTC

xmonkee wrote: post #30

isanjay wrote: post #7

> I was, however, not ready to publicly declare it until I received tenure as it seemed too risky Risk of what ? Seems a bit exaggerating. > There are at most five tenure-track faculty who belong to OBC category among all the faculty members in North America's "top" 50 CS departments > What evidence do I have to support my claim? And then continues to show castes of faculty at IIT. Am I missing something here ?

>Risk of what ? Seems a bit exaggerating. There is a whole paragraph answering this question: ``` An uninitiated might be forgiven for not realizing that caste-based discrimination is rampant in India (yes, even among faculty members at IITs), and perhaps worse among Non-Resident Indians (NRIs). Therefore, there was always fear of what would a potential letter writer or someone on tenure evaluation committee think of…

If you're from IIT, you must be aware there is clear difference in the performance of those who come on quota(like oBC, SC, ST etc) and those without quota. If you extrapolate the same academic performance throughout the students career, and assuming for the incoming class of 1000 have to select 10 professor on the academic performance, who it's gonna be? The dude who came on quota or the dudes who were off the chart in the tests? Do you suggest we should also appoint professors and give grants based on the caste?

Re: My Caste

#227

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:36 PM UTC

varunpant wrote: post #162

rhaway84773 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet 1 out of 180 CS professors are OBCs despite the population being over 40%. It’s probably closer to the welfare queen trope. Yeah, there are a few people who cheat the system, like any other system in the world. Thaw existence of cheaters does not negate the very real problems and challenges faced by the actual “victims”.

[flagged]

And where would that end, right? /s

Thanks for saying the quiet part out loud so.

Re: My Caste

#228

Post by OkayPhysicist » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:37 PM UTC

hn_99 wrote: post #157

rhaway84773 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol and why don’t they qualify? Because of centuries of discrimination that has kept them poorer and less educated. You might be able to argue that there is no discrimination today and that the hiring process itself is not discriminatory, but the outcomes are entirely the result of discrimination in society.

This discussion made me curious, how is the cause of their poverty and lack of opportunity relevant? There are hundreds of millions of underprivileged people in India, why should those from a lower caste be given precedence over others, even if there is a history of oppression behind their poverty?

So there's basically three views on social welfare. The far right doesn't want it to exist at all, or if it must exist it should be funneled towards the already powerful, because nobody deserves it. The left says that we need to distribute social welfare in order to equalize society, because everyone deserves a good life. The liberals, in between the two, view welfare as a means to make up for societal failures or outright wrongs. It's not about the fact that these people are needy, it's about the fact that they're needy and it's our fault.

Race/caste/etc based welfare distribution comes from that last model.

Re: My Caste

#229

Post by moralestapia » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:37 PM UTC

michaelhoffman wrote: post #215

moralestapia wrote: post #199

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a…

I am faculty at University of Toronto. As part of the process of considering someone for tenure here, the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions. The candidate will not know who the referees are. Generally, the appraisals are positive; a negative appraisal may severely affect someone's tenure case. I don't see the concern in this post as one of widespread caste discrimination a…

Everyone carries some cultural/personal baggage, if that affects the outcome of some otherwise fair procedure it's a sad story but it's not the procedure's fault.

>the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions

If you think this could be improved, well, show us how.

Re: My Caste

#230

Post by aildours » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 8:37 PM UTC

b215826 wrote: post #190

aildours wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can assure you that the vast majority of upper-caste people here don't use a caste-based surname anymore. Oh, I don't need assuring for this, this was the point I was making! Basically, some south Indian upper castes use their father's first name as their surname. And this in itself is a strong signifier that the person is from the upper caste! And yes, some surnames like Bulsara are linked to a place, some are n…

.

This will be my last comment in this chain since this is going nowhere. Patronymics and matronymics are used by some south Indians, who are at the most 20% of the population. The simple point made in the OP is essentially that caste-based surnames are typical in India, and which you have not refuted.

No, you don't have to fill your caste but you are typically expected to tick one of the SC/ST/OBC/General boxes (these being the categories of reservation), and then provide a proof if required. The sentence you quote refers to this, and not on how they were hired, which is what you are saying. RTI queries can absolutely answer things of this kind, please just read the question the OP asks in the linked pdfs.