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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#91

Post by sho_hn »

em500 wrote: post #85

South Korea is just the most extreme example of the global trend of below replacement rate and still decreasing fertility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#/media/Fi... Central Africa is pretty much the only remaining region with fertility>3. Even in pretty poor countries like Bangladesh, which I learned in school had unsustainability high birth rates are already near or below replacement rate ferti…

It's a simplistic thought, but I often have this optimistic impulse that dealing with stabilizing the birth rate is easier than escaping the Malthusian trap would be, especially with energy use/person generally trending up.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#92

Post by markus_zhang »

Chinese people are seeing the same decline of birth and marriage.

Part of that contributes to better life but I'd say the majority is because of Capitalism. This form of Capitalism is initiated by the government so there is not much to check its power.

Essentially, if you look at housing, cost of education and cost of medical services, you will understand why middle class in China does not want to give birth to children.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#93

Post by sho_hn »

kredd wrote: post #90
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

Agreed completely, but I’ll add another point. About 50% of my friends are university+ educated women of different ethnicities, but all living in first world countries. We’re also all in our late 20s or 30s, so it’s becoming a “now or never” kind of dilemma for some of them. We used to make “oh it’s expensive!” excuse until we started making decent money. Now that excuse doesn’t work, but there has been a significant…

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities.

What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or money anymore" like "traveling".

Which is of course true, having kids is a trade-of. But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against?

Sure, you can prefer one or the other at will, and it could absolutely be true that your pick is best for you. But I'll say that my friends who are into activities/experiences that provide challenge (e.g. sports, adventuring, what have you) also are often into having kids.

That makes me wonder if there's not something to cultivating the kind of experiences you seek to have.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#94

Post by duchenne »

This sounds like a study made from afar by just reading numbers without even talking to Koreans.

When I talk to Korean parents, the vast majority of them tell me that raising even one kid is exhausting.

They usually try as much as possible to satisfy every requests of their baby: carrying the toddlers for hours until they fall sleep, letting their kids sleep in the parents bed until they're 6, spoon-feeding them until they are 6, and so on... A Korean pediatrician friend told me that Korean kids score the lowest in the world in terms of autonomy.

So, parents of one kid are already exhausted and think it would be too hard to have a second one.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#95

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

jmyeet wrote: post #75
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?

Yes there are restrictions on supply but you need to look at why for the things you mention. Zoning doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's implemented by politicians. Why? What forces are pushing for that? Is it the NIMBYs? Maybe. But money talks in politics. So what political interests are pushing for restrictive zoning? Why? The real problem here is that housing became financialized (like every aspect of our lives). Peop…

Cool, so why is the solution simply not getting money out of politics and allowing people to build as much and as affordable housing as they want? Why is the solution to have the government distribute living accommodations, as opposed to making those dwellings cost pennies like anything else you can buy on Amazon, and let the markets figure this out the way they have with TVs and pencils?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#96

Post by angmarsbane »

orochimaaru wrote: post #83
remarkEon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A…

My wife dropped out of the workforce for our kids in the US and then wanted to go back to work once they were more independent. It's not that we couldn't make it work financially. Anecdotally, I was against us having the second child. I wanted my wife to head back to work once my elder child was 3. There were a bunch of reasons she had dropped out but she had liked her job. She was lucky but not everyone is.

May I ask why you didn’t want a second kid, and why you wanted your wife to go back to work before your child was kinder age (4/5)?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#97

Post by nonethewiser »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

There is an inconvenient truth about women leaving the house and entering the workforce.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#98

Post by pyuser583 »

munk-a wrote: post #64
WanderPanda wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

We've allowed everything in life to be assigned a monetary value and it turns out that kids have a very low RoI

This really defines the problem. (1) we approach child rearing as an economic proposition, and (2) it doesn’t make sense to as an economic proposition.

But the more we fight the second proposition, the more we reinforce the first.

Trying to make kids less expensive still treats this as a financial calculation.

When you ask “why have kids?” there needs to be a real answer, and I don’t think “the economic public good” is going to convince people.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#99

Post by pid-1 »

famahar wrote: post #77
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

I hope we one day see a radical new form of raising children. Historically it was truly a village that raised a child. I never understood how my parents raised 5 children. But looking into it more, there was always a community of people that raised me. Community and mutual aid was huge in the small town in Ethiopia where my parents came from. Coming to Canada, that didn't change. Uncles, aunts, older cousins, long ti…

> I never understood how my parents raised 5 children.

My 2*(grand)mother raised 11 children. From what I've heard from other family members, the key to success is not giving enough emotional and material support to each child.

What I'm trying to say is: the expectations on children quality of life are also much higher vs 100 yrs ago.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#100

Post by toomuchtodo »

sho_hn wrote: post #93
kredd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed completely, but I’ll add another point. About 50% of my friends are university+ educated women of different ethnicities, but all living in first world countries. We’re also all in our late 20s or 30s, so it’s becoming a “now or never” kind of dilemma for some of them. We used to make “oh it’s expensive!” excuse until we started making decent money. Now that excuse doesn’t work, but there has been a significant…

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against?

Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them?

https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par...

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

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