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So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

theprivacydad.com

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Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#81

Post by skybrian »

trustmebro wrote: post #56
skybrian wrote: post #40

I like that they directly tried to answer this question, but I still think the "so what" case is stronger, for me anyway. I don't use an ad blocker and there are certain sites that are annoying, but I think the biggest influence on me is that I avoid those websites. I don't notice the actual ads very often (other than as an annoyance) and I don't buy very much. What I buy seems more influenced by other things like Wi…

You do notice the ads, though. That's the whole point of visual ads: you are being influenced to buy certain brands in the periphery.

I don't think they influence me much? They might remind me of something I wanted to do anyway, but usually they are irrelevant.

At scale, ads do something, but what it is isn't very clear. Some people are convinced that ads do real harm but the evidence seems fairly shaky. There are lots of dodgy psychological theories out there.

Here's one dodgy theory (with little evidence behind it) about how ads might work:

https://meltingasphalt.com/ads-dont-work-that-way/

Also, how they work in general is different from whether they work in me. I think observing my own thoughts processes and behavior is better evidence than someone on the Internet telling me what they believe about ads.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#82

Post by ashleyn »

bachmeier wrote: post #63
Deukhoofd wrote: post #11

I think a great example of why data privacy matters was the recent concern many American women had about whether data collected by their period tracking app could be used to persecute them for abortions. While you might believe that the data being collected about you is harmless, a government hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect.

> a government hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect A future government - one that is very different from the one currently in power or that you ever imagined possible - could use that data against you with great effect. A foreign government hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect. An institution hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect. A c…

A media outlet hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect - and it's already happened. The owners of Sanctioned Suicide were deanonymised by the NYT in part from illegally obtained data - the Epik breach.[1]

These were individuals who intended on staying pseudonymous, operated something that was legal-but-disagreeable-to-the-public, but yet fell victim to a hack that spilled their identity. And in spite of that, journalists felt it ethical to use illegally obtained data in part to "out" them. Nobody to my knowledge called out the problems with this - or that this same ethically fraught tactic may one day be used by organised harassers and right-wing outlets to deanonymise people seeking abortion or gender-affirming care.

Here in the US, the First Amendment makes any legal remedy to this hard to achieve. Yet still, we could be doing far better than to passively condone the use of illegally obtained data in investigative journalism to highlight unpopular, perhaps even vile, but legal activities.

[1]: https://archive.ph/eL4dS

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#83

Post by skybrian »

hsosvdodv wrote: post #48
skybrian wrote: post #40

I like that they directly tried to answer this question, but I still think the "so what" case is stronger, for me anyway. I don't use an ad blocker and there are certain sites that are annoying, but I think the biggest influence on me is that I avoid those websites. I don't notice the actual ads very often (other than as an annoyance) and I don't buy very much. What I buy seems more influenced by other things like Wi…

in the long term you end up paying more because of all the returns. all for the privilege of being abused by countless fake and incorrect listings trying to fool you when trying to but something (with a 25% change the you will wait, spend time to return, and still not have the item) yet you claim that you move away from sites that merely annoy you with ads. I'm highly skeptical.

If that's the cost, I think we're comfortable paying it, rather than not being able to return things.

It's not that I don't see ads, but I do tend to prefer websites like Hacker News more than ad-driven websites. I do see ads on linked news sites.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#84

Post by skybrian »

falcolas wrote: post #68
skybrian wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an example of being concerned, though. That is, people imagine a possible future and they are concerned about it. When we think about the future, this is the stuff of imagination, storytelling, and mathematical models. It's mental constructs, not something that actually happened. Many examples used in privacy arguments are like that. If you instead look for things that actually happened, it's things like journ…

If you are gay, transsexual, or a woman, (or assist one of those groups with getting medical care) that "war" is upon you now. And, this war has been foretold for decades now.

Yes, this depends on who you are and where you live. By war I meant actual war, like in Ukraine.

Also, I don't think Google is the problem for vulnerable minorities, and it might be part of the solution, because they do have good security?

Using Google isn't a good idea is you think law enforcement might take an interest and get a warrant, though.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#85

Post by skybrian »

tracker1 wrote: post #79
skybrian wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an example of being concerned, though. That is, people imagine a possible future and they are concerned about it. When we think about the future, this is the stuff of imagination, storytelling, and mathematical models. It's mental constructs, not something that actually happened. Many examples used in privacy arguments are like that. If you instead look for things that actually happened, it's things like journ…

I also think it's important to maximize personal liberty... even for those you don't agree with. It's disturbing how many people support overt censorship and thought crimes. Eventually it can and will be used against you. Govt in general will always abuse every power granted in the end, and everything you let it do to attack "the other side" can be turned on you.

This is a classic example of an ideological argument. But of course ideology is important to many people.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#86

Post by cglong »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #62
alphabetting wrote: post #16

Obviously in a very small minority here but I decided almost 10 years ago to give them as much data as possible because they were leading in AI and I want AI to have access to as much data on me as possible to make life easier when it gets smart enough. Hasn't panned out yet but I don't really regret it.

This is an interesting take: >AI to have access to as much data on me as possible to make life easier when it gets smart enough // And it would seem reasonable if Google's aim were to provide you good AI services rather than to extract as much money from you as possible (and no longer with the benefit of not being evil). Doesn't OpenAI seizing a large chunk of the personal-services LLM market show that you should hav…

OpenAI may be ahead in general LLMs, but I get a lot of additional value from Google Maps, Google Photos, and my Discover feed as a result of the data they've collected about me over the years.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#87

Post by kridsdale3 »

corv wrote: post #19
Deukhoofd wrote: post #11

I think a great example of why data privacy matters was the recent concern many American women had about whether data collected by their period tracking app could be used to persecute them for abortions. While you might believe that the data being collected about you is harmless, a government hostile to you could use that data against you with great effect.

An even more worrying account of data hoarding was when homosexuals were registered and later sent to concentration camps... (Yes, I've just invoked Godwin's law) In my opinion data should be regarded as a liability by default. We can't rely on a given corporation being benign, or not cooperating with a given regime forever.

This is precisely why Germany (and thus the EU) is the global leader in personal data protection and on-device ML requirements.

When I was at Apple getting iCloud off the ground, we had to carve out exemptions for all client-server syncing to allow phone-mac sync specifically for Germany. Because they know what happens when the government can subpoena your data.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#88

Post by DharmaPolice »

AlbertCory wrote: post #60
jccalhoun wrote: post #15

If they are collecting so much data why do the ads still suck? I bought a pixel 7a and I still get ads for it all the time. You would think that google would know that I already bought a google phone from them.

Most likely, they have some data telling them this is a good strategy. Otherwise they'd stop.

This is giving Google too much credit.

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#89

Post by kridsdale3 »

beardog wrote: post #37
corv wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An even more worrying account of data hoarding was when homosexuals were registered and later sent to concentration camps... (Yes, I've just invoked Godwin's law) In my opinion data should be regarded as a liability by default. We can't rely on a given corporation being benign, or not cooperating with a given regime forever.

Grindr is being abused by egyptian police to persecute gay and bisexual people: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/24/grindr-egypt...

Grindr was bought by a Chinese company. Gee, I wonder why a (I presume CCP backed) company would want a list of all the closeted gay US Senators?

Re: So what if Google sends me targeted ads?

#90

Post by skybrian »

tracker1 wrote: post #75
skybrian wrote: post #40

I like that they directly tried to answer this question, but I still think the "so what" case is stronger, for me anyway. I don't use an ad blocker and there are certain sites that are annoying, but I think the biggest influence on me is that I avoid those websites. I don't notice the actual ads very often (other than as an annoyance) and I don't buy very much. What I buy seems more influenced by other things like Wi…

Amazon really bugs me in that you can't filter by seller anymore... I would usually filter and buy only from Amazon. Makes it literally harder to use, and I've actually started using it less as a result. For me, the bigger risk in the ad networks is the viral vector. It's way too easy to inject ads with viral outcomes into the ad networks, still. It's the same reason I disabled flash at home, when I found out I could…

Not sure about viruses. Yes, ads have been used as a vector, and there are zero days, but I think mainstream OSes and browsers have pretty good security if you keep up to date? I suspect phishing attacks are a bigger issue.

It can be quite difficult to tell the difference between spooky coincidences and actual targeted ads. My money is on spooky coincidences, but it's a problem that many people imagine otherwise, and there's no way to prove it one way or the other because modern technology is basically magic as far as most users are concerned.

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