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Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

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Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#91

Post by Tommstein »

ipython wrote: post #38
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #8

I don't know the origins of the "disagree and commit" philosophy, but Jassy's use seems like a self-serving perversion of what is an attempt at dealing with decision deadlock. ... that is, disagree-and-commit transactionally seems like it ought to be between peers. Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just "shut up and follow orders."

Disagree and commit (more specifically have a backbone; disagree and commit) is one of the fourteen Amazon leadership principles which is why he’s probably using that specific language Ref. https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/our-workplace/leadership-...

Simultaneously telling you to have a backbone, and to bend over and take it. Hopefully that backbone is flexible.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#93

Post by jedberg »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

You know what else is great for companies and but terrible for workers? Child labor. Yet we don't allow it because it's cruel. Companies just have to suffer the lost productivity of not having child labor.

Same with two day weekends. They have to pay extra to get people to work weekends or more than five days a week.

Whether it is more effective or not isn't the point. It's better for workers. The smart companies are doing it voluntarily.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#94

Post by stephenr »

sokoloff wrote: post #78
dekhn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree and commit isn't about minor style guide details. It's about making major strategic decisions that affect lots of people. (I should have thought this would be obvious from context)

Disagree and commit is ideally suited for something like the tabs vs spaces or other style guide debates where there's no obviously/universally best answer. It's more important that all devs in a given file (at least) are using the same convention and people have different opinions about it. Have the discussion (the time to disagree), make and publish a decision, expect everyone to commit to the made decision. Every…

> something like the tabs vs spaces ... where there's no obviously/universally best answer.

No there is, some people are just wrong.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#96

Post by hinkley »

rhaway84773 wrote: post #41
hinkley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you persist in disagreeing with an idea if you did not see real world consequences for the wrong solution in your future? If you're dealing with obstructionist people, surely there are other ways to detect and address it than 'disagree and commit'.

Or maybe it’s not obstructionist people and you just have a difference in opinion. Or you might be wrong. Or you’re the obstructionist person. That’s the whole point of disagree and commit. Most decisions are not clear cut obvious decisions, otherwise it’s unlikely there would be disagreements about them. Disagree and commit allows everyone to contribute to their max capacity and move forward once deadlock has been r…

I've worked two places that had this rule, and both of them only needed it because they had profound issues elsewhere in their management practice that were leading to trust issues. One of them was almost certainly cargo culting Amazon.

There's only one place I can think of that might have benefited from that rule, and there were other solutions that would have worked as well if not better. Like a boss with a backbone.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#97

Post by nvm0n2 »

unforeseen9991 wrote: post #64
oldoracle wrote: post #25

Hilarious to me Oracle has no issue with remote work while Apple, Amazon, Google, all flip out Deals they cut, whether it’s leases or tax breaks, are not my responsibility. Aside from Apple, the only thing the anti-remote places have is brand recognition. The knowledge they possess is worker knowledge. They’re having a hard time justifying valuations since their real social value is corralling workers who are then to…

I wonder how much real estate Oracle owns compared to the others?

Doubt it's that. They have a normal amount of real estate for a software company. From what I've seen of their culture (at least some parts) it's just more relaxed. Maybe not in cloud but in other areas. They also seem to go in less for other top-down imposed cultural trends like DIE.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#98

Post by ninthcat »

sokoloff wrote: post #14
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #8

I don't know the origins of the "disagree and commit" philosophy, but Jassy's use seems like a self-serving perversion of what is an attempt at dealing with decision deadlock. ... that is, disagree-and-commit transactionally seems like it ought to be between peers. Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just "shut up and follow orders."

That's exactly what it's intended to mean. Until a decision is made, feel free to express your disagreement and arguments in favor of your position. If your ideas/arguments are convincing enough (words that are doing a lot of work, I realize), then it will be chosen. Once the decision is made and communicated, you're expected to follow/implement it. Said differently: what's the practical alternative? If you don't lik…

The "disagree and commit" leadership principle is supposed to represent a situation where the manager is the one who disagrees with a subordinate but trusts the subordinate's judgement enough to commit to going along with their idea (this also works for a peer relationship). The relevant LP for the subordinate is "earn trust". Simply following orders is not an LP. Of course there is enough vagueness in the LPs that Jassy can twist the meaning a bit.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#99

Post by taurath »

rhaway84773 wrote: post #43
taurath wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just disagreeing and committing is the new “just following orders”

That’s a ridiculous comparison. “just following orders” is very much shorthand for following morally heinous decisions because you were asked to. In that case you disagree and quit. If you’re braver than most people you blow a whistle, etc. Just following orders is not about working arrangements in a corporation. And if you do find working arrangements morally heinous then you disagree and quit.

The power dynamics between a corporation and a person are very lopsided towards the corporation. Advice of “they should just quit” seems to assume opportunity elsewhere, and undermines the amount of pain and disruption to people’s lives at the whim of executives who can far more easily weather consequences. Having to have a Tesla instead of a Bugatti or a 24 foot boat is a lot different than someone worried about being able to make their mortgage payment, move their kids to different schools and a completely different social group, or face a multi hour commute. It gets a lot more dicey when someone will lose the roof over their head because someone decided to close a warehouse.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#100

Post by hurrrr »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

Amazon does not have data to motivate the RTO

Source:

- https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-andy-jassy-no-data-re...

- https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-relies-o...

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