Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues • Hacker News Board

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#41

Post by pc86 » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

mdgrech23 wrote: post #21

bettercallsalad wrote: post #4

I expect a major pilot shortage in recent years. Not too long ago many of them were on strike [1] [2], due to apparently bad pay and high burnout. It really is a thankless profession. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/29/southwest-pilots-union-lays-... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/united-ai...

Government will solve this by opening up H1B visas to pilots.

ALPA would never allow that - you can start flying a 737 or similar in Europe with a wet 200-hour commercial license. In the US you need an R-ATP with 1500 hours before you can even be considered and even then you're going to start on something smaller. For context, I've been flying recreationally since 2017 with two or three long pauses (6+ months) and have well over 200 hours. You could hit 200 hours in the first 12-14 months if you were dedicated, picking up your instrument and commercial on the way.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#42

Post by linuxftw » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

mattw2121 wrote: post #29

dghughes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming the system to their benefit. They are able to maximize disability benefits as well as GI Bill benefits. I'm not in the USA but really to me that's just seems like they are getting what they should. Any citizen of any country should get medical care free of charge. Military veterans whether their issue is from combat or not I think should get all the car…

These benefits (and the gaming of them) are not about receiving medical care. These veterans already get free medical care from the VA. It's about monetary payments. They game the VA disability system to get paid.

To actually be seen, you mostly need a disability rating. Every veteran has 'free medical care' much in the way that every poor person has free medical care. It exists on paper, but it's impossible to obtain.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#43

Post by literalbatshit » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

mattw2121 wrote: post #2

"The pilots who have had their records examined are military veterans who informed the Federal Aviation Administration that they were suitable to fly, but didn't disclose that they were also receiving veterans benefits for various disabilities that could prevent them from effectively sitting in a pilot's seat." This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming…

> I've known and worked with multiple veterans and each one of them gamed these systems to maximum benefit. So exactly like private employees & companies? I'm not sure we should be expecting humans not to game systems to their own benefit. Isn't that basic human nature?

“Gaming” is not always equal to fraud though. We should expect legal gaming not outright fraud.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#44

Post by 23B1 » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #23

23B1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is exactly the same logic the VA uses to deny claims to people who did in fact get diabetes from Agent Orange exposure. Looks like you have a bright future in claims adjustment! ;-) Edit: There's plenty of evidence connecting Agent Orange exposure to a whole host of illnesses that only manifest later in life – including Diabetes. It's even on the VA's own site: https://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/publ…

How do you conclusively attribute diabetes to agent orange 40 years after the fact? What test do you run, and what scientific methodology do you employ? We are real bad at connecting dots that take more than a few years to happen. So many other things happen to us every day. Even if some bad action doubles your odds of a certain outcome.. that means it is still 50/50 if the original thing "caused" your bad outcome.

The simple fact is that human physiology isn't as simple as 50/50. All kinds of things can contribute to Diabetes, to be sure, but studies have shown that a lot of these illnesses are probabilistic in nature, e.g. there's a higher incidence of things like diabetes amongst people who've been exposed to AO even when corrected for other variables.

https://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/publications/agent...

Of course, I haven't even broached the moral obligation the American public has to men they send to war...

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#45

Post by rhplus » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

curiousObject wrote: post #17

Is Germanwings Flight 9525[0] the worst case of how this can go terribly badly if these pilots are not treated with kindness and assured of a dignified retirement? [0] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

By 2017, Lufthansa had paid €75,000 to the family of every victim, as well as €10,000 in pain and suffering compensation to every close relative of a victim.

Wow. These compensation amounts seem… incredibly low. Is this some upper limit under German law? I’d have assumed compensation would be in the order of €1m.

[*] https://www.keystonelaw.com/keynotes/how-is-compensation-cal...

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#46

Post by room500 » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #32

no_wizard wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference of course, is that pilots can squeeze airlines almost infinitely if they want to, because without pilots, the whole operation stops. They're the difference between flights happening and not happening, and they aren't easy to replace, and certainly not easy to replace quickly Honestly, I'm surprised they haven't flexed this more.

They probably have less power than you think. If they actually shut down all aviation and didn’t have a very convincing PR strategy, they’d find an infuriated public (you can’t go to your daughter’s wedding, your grandpa’s funeral, etc.), which the airlines (and the government, which has a serious interest in seeing air commerce working smoothly) would absolutely use to their advantage. Don’t forget that when ATCs ac…

It is also illegal for them to strike without going through mediation, etc. Pilots are allowed to vote to go on strike at any time (and they can have picket lines as if they were on strike) but they cannot stop showing up for work.

Pilots are one of the few professions that are covered under the Railway Labor Act, so federal mediators have lots of power to reach an agreement between airlines and pilots

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#47

Post by NoZebra120vClip » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

mattw2121 wrote: post #35

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've known and worked with multiple veterans and each one of them gamed these systems to maximum benefit. So exactly like private employees & companies? I'm not sure we should be expecting humans not to game systems to their own benefit. Isn't that basic human nature?

Yes, I think we should expect people to act with integrity. When they don't we should call them out. I'm all for social programs to help people in need, but I end up opposing most of the proposed social programs. Why is this? Because people game them. If people acted with integrity, and only people that truly needed assistance utilized social programs, then I think you'd find far less people oppose them.

Why is it not integrity to use the system to maximize the benefit to myself? Insurance carriers and the medical-industrial complex are notoriously byzantine, and so if anyone can navigate those waters and improve their outcomes, and extract the maximum value of care for themselves, then I think that is exactly what one should be expected to do within the bounds of the system they are given. There is nothing dishonest or "gaming" about it.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#48

Post by briffle » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

kotaKat wrote: post #18

mattw2121 wrote: post #2

"The pilots who have had their records examined are military veterans who informed the Federal Aviation Administration that they were suitable to fly, but didn't disclose that they were also receiving veterans benefits for various disabilities that could prevent them from effectively sitting in a pilot's seat." This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming…

It's the FAA's normal mental health brigade horseshit, except this time it's the FAA snooping around in VA records just because they can. It looks like the veterans being targeted have various concerns like PTSD, which the FAA finds that as soon as you even think you're depressed, they want to revoke your pilots license because they think you'll immediately pull Some Shit in the air. The average person has no clue ho…

Right, its not like hundreds of people's lives are in these pilot's hands. I can't imagine what a depressed pilot might do..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#49

Post by pc86 » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:24 PM UTC

curiousObject wrote: post #17

Is Germanwings Flight 9525[0] the worst case of how this can go terribly badly if these pilots are not treated with kindness and assured of a dignified retirement? [0] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

There are probably a handful of incidences like this, and statistically several where this was the truth but we have no way of ever knowing (e.g. MH370).

I'm not sure how it could get any worse than this? At the end of the day you will never have a system that will protect you against a homicidal pilot. The closest you can get is requiring two pilots in the cockpit at all times, but if the bigger and stronger of the two wants to kill everyone anyway, there's little stopping them from just trying to kill the other pilot first while the door is locked.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#50

Post by dh2022 » Mon, Aug 28, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

Geisterde wrote: post #14

nickpeterson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a vet, but I wonder if it comes from working in an environment that is so massive, at times wasteful, and your contributions feel insignificant. I think a lot of people could convince themselves that if they don’t take advantage of something, someone else will.

The moment you realize debt is devalued over time and begin taking on debt to acquire hard assets, like anybody who is smart with their money, you are gaming the system. Its not to say people aren't legitimately creating value or building good businesses, but those businesses necessarily must pay the minimum required taxes to be competitive in the market against someone else who will. Politicians invest in stocks tha…

Debt is devalued in time when interest rates raise. The last couple of years aside, debt value has been increasing since interest rates peaked in late 1970s.