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Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

businessinsider.com

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Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#31

Post by Geisterde »

snapcaster wrote: post #22
Geisterde wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dishonorable? Lying us into wars is dishonorable. Stop putting government bureaucrats in charge of so much money, its obvious they can't spend it appropriately, I could get a hell of a lot more bang for my buck out of spending my own money.

I'm very personally against the war state and general US imperialism but I don't think the "bang for your buck" argument is necessarily true. I couldn't personally secure alliances with or occupations of oil rich nations that allow for me to have access to extremely cheap energy. I think I benefit from it, but that doesn't make it just

Why can't a business like exxon secure contracts for your oil? You benefit from the government doing it on a first order where the worlds oil is priced in your native currency, secondary effects may include the world hating you, the destruction of domestic production, your cultural traditions fading into obscurity, corruption, the joining of political and corporate interests. Ask your doctor before taking.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#32

Post by Analemma_ »

no_wizard wrote: post #24
api wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a high skill profession in an industry that largely competes on cost. One will find similarly thankless jobs in manufacturing, agriculture, and any other industry where the push is to squeeze margins as much as possible. Everything about flying has become substantially worse except safety. The only way the industry is able to maintain its safety record is by being heavily regulated and never changing anything .

The difference of course, is that pilots can squeeze airlines almost infinitely if they want to, because without pilots, the whole operation stops. They're the difference between flights happening and not happening, and they aren't easy to replace, and certainly not easy to replace quickly Honestly, I'm surprised they haven't flexed this more.

They probably have less power than you think. If they actually shut down all aviation and didn’t have a very convincing PR strategy, they’d find an infuriated public (you can’t go to your daughter’s wedding, your grandpa’s funeral, etc.), which the airlines (and the government, which has a serious interest in seeing air commerce working smoothly) would absolutely use to their advantage.

Don’t forget that when ATCs actually followed your logic, Reagan responded by firing them all, and even though in more recent years this has been cast as the horrible beginning-of-the-end for American unions, at the time he had broad public support, because people were incensed that one profession could shut down air travel.

All this is to say that I think pilots’ unions do have a good sense of how hard to push and not push. They don’t have infinite leverage.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#33

Post by nutate »

The mental health limitations around flight are how you get malaysian air flight 370. Don't say anything, treat anything, work through anything involving mental health because you'll lose your license immediately. Therefore the folks with milder mental illnesses will never solo pilot a plane, and folks with serious psychopathic mental illness, especially if it appears after they begin working, will kill everyone on board.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#34

Post by birdyrooster »

Geisterde wrote: post #15
millzlane wrote: post #3

I wouldn't call it harassment. It's clear it's just easier to catch the vets because they also lied to the VA. I admit they VA has it short comings. But there more vets in need then there are not,embellishing your condition to get more benefits is dishonorable. What's not surprising is pilots who lie about their health to keep making money. Especially in this economy.

Dishonorable? Lying us into wars is dishonorable. Stop putting government bureaucrats in charge of so much money, its obvious they can't spend it appropriately, I could get a hell of a lot more bang for my buck out of spending my own money.

No I rather like that you are required to give some of your income back to the whole of society, it's a good practice to not be so closed and isolated.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#35

Post by mattw2121 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27
mattw2121 wrote: post #2

"The pilots who have had their records examined are military veterans who informed the Federal Aviation Administration that they were suitable to fly, but didn't disclose that they were also receiving veterans benefits for various disabilities that could prevent them from effectively sitting in a pilot's seat." This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming…

> I've known and worked with multiple veterans and each one of them gamed these systems to maximum benefit. So exactly like private employees & companies? I'm not sure we should be expecting humans not to game systems to their own benefit. Isn't that basic human nature?

Yes, I think we should expect people to act with integrity. When they don't we should call them out. I'm all for social programs to help people in need, but I end up opposing most of the proposed social programs. Why is this? Because people game them. If people acted with integrity, and only people that truly needed assistance utilized social programs, then I think you'd find far less people oppose them.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#36

Post by docandrew »

mattw2121 wrote: post #29
dghughes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming the system to their benefit. They are able to maximize disability benefits as well as GI Bill benefits. I'm not in the USA but really to me that's just seems like they are getting what they should. Any citizen of any country should get medical care free of charge. Military veterans whether their issue is from combat or not I think should get all the car…

These benefits (and the gaming of them) are not about receiving medical care. These veterans already get free medical care from the VA. It's about monetary payments. They game the VA disability system to get paid.

I’m not sure how “gaming” it is possible when the VA either performs (or contracts out) medical exams for a veteran’s specific claim and determines whether the veteran is eligible or not. It’s not like they just take a veteran’s word for it.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#37

Post by linuxftw »

brianwawok wrote: post #23
23B1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is exactly the same logic the VA uses to deny claims to people who did in fact get diabetes from Agent Orange exposure. Looks like you have a bright future in claims adjustment! ;-) Edit: There's plenty of evidence connecting Agent Orange exposure to a whole host of illnesses that only manifest later in life – including Diabetes. It's even on the VA's own site: https://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/publ…

How do you conclusively attribute diabetes to agent orange 40 years after the fact? What test do you run, and what scientific methodology do you employ? We are real bad at connecting dots that take more than a few years to happen. So many other things happen to us every day. Even if some bad action doubles your odds of a certain outcome.. that means it is still 50/50 if the original thing "caused" your bad outcome.

My grandfather was killed by agent orange. He wound up with some extremely rare lung condition, but according to the VA, it wasn't the right lung condition so they denied his claim. He didn't die in his 80s, he died in his early 60s.

The VA also claimed he was never exposed because he wasn't in one of the units they claim were exposed, that's the other game they play. He was in a mobile unit that was sent to various places in theater, so the government doesn't have the documentation of where they actually were, but claims they know he wasn't exposed. He told me first hand he woke up one morning and the jungle outside the base was completely gone.

We don't know what agent orange did to people. Agent orange wasn't even the only defoliant used. How much of it was stored improperly? How much of it was contaminated during manufacturing with other compounds?

Fortunately, we still use 2,4-D, half the mix of agent orange, so we all get to find out first hand.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#38

Post by justrealist »

nickpeterson wrote: post #5
mattw2121 wrote: post #2

"The pilots who have had their records examined are military veterans who informed the Federal Aviation Administration that they were suitable to fly, but didn't disclose that they were also receiving veterans benefits for various disabilities that could prevent them from effectively sitting in a pilot's seat." This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming…

I’m not a vet, but I wonder if it comes from working in an environment that is so massive, at times wasteful, and your contributions feel insignificant. I think a lot of people could convince themselves that if they don’t take advantage of something, someone else will.

The negative PR from wrongfully denying a vet benefits is so bad, and the system is completely un-incentivized to be cost-effective, that there are basically 0 real eligibility tests.

Any politician (or bureaucrat) who says "you know, maybe we should be denying disability to 20% of these veterans" is going to be strung up and quartered. So, nobody tries.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#39

Post by whiddershins »

bettercallsalad wrote: post #4

I expect a major pilot shortage in recent years. Not too long ago many of them were on strike [1] [2], due to apparently bad pay and high burnout. It really is a thankless profession. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/29/southwest-pilots-union-lays-... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/united-ai...

Commercial airline pilots - ones for the planes you typically fly on - make great money, have a strong union that negotiates well on their behalf, have tons of job protections, hours protections, and lots of control over their schedule once they have seniority.

It is a good job in most people's estimation, they are not victims.

Re: Feds probing roughly 5k pilots suspected of withholding major health issues

#40

Post by mattw2121 »

lp0_on_fire wrote: post #28
mattw2121 wrote: post #2

"The pilots who have had their records examined are military veterans who informed the Federal Aviation Administration that they were suitable to fly, but didn't disclose that they were also receiving veterans benefits for various disabilities that could prevent them from effectively sitting in a pilot's seat." This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming…

> This is just my anecdotal observations, but I've seen that military veterans are extremely adept at gaming the system to their benefit. They are able to maximize disability benefits as well as GI Bill benefits. I've known and worked with multiple veterans and each one of them gamed these systems to maximum benefit. "gamed" is a very loaded term that suggests something untoward is happening as opposed to people just…

Yes, I have anecdotal evidence that people are gaming the system to get more than they deserve. I have directly observed multiple Vietnam Vets gaming the Agent Orange system to get 90-100% disability. The would visit multiple doctors to get the wording they needed to supply evidence that some health issue was related to Agent Orange. Their goal was to get a doctor to write down that a particular health issue "might" be related to Agent Orange. Once they achieved that, they would add that health issue on the list of other health issues. Each one would get them 5-20% disability.
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