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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

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Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#171

Post by nevon »

quonn wrote: post #160
nevon wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what exactly is your point? That people require money to live? My parents spent exactly $0 on my education, as every student gets a grant of around €3000/m, and you can get a low interest student loan for the rest.

Which country? I should have clarified that I‘m talking about Germany which is certainly part of Europe. And for sure nobody here gets 3000 per month. In Germany students receive no grant (other than the regular Kindergeld for children) unless their parents together earn less than 40k before taxes.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to write €300/m. Just looked up the numbers, and the exact amount is €360/m as a subsidy, and up to another €700/m in a low-interest loan (0.59%). This is in Sweden.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#172

Post by maccard »

emptysongglass wrote: post #110
cloogshicer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for hea…

Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age, which is increasing. Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant. These are not things to be celebrated.

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong.

> you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age

As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you might have wrong) is about the same cost as my mortage here in the UK.

It's also not a government mandated retirement age, it's the age that the government will provide financial support to you. It's feasible for someone on a median income in the UK (where I live) to retire before they hit 66, as long as they prepare. Someone making a median income in the US is unlikely to be able to.

> which is increasing

Again, technically true but also misleading. It's not just steadily increasing, there's only so far it can go. The equivalent age in the US is already 70, fwiw.

> Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant

The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy.

> These are not things to be celebrated.

US cost of living is skyrocketing (they're behind us at the moment, but their COL was already higher so the comparison is tough). Inequality levels in the US are still wildly higher than anywhere in europe (even the UK), the US has massive social problems that don't exist on the same scale here, etc.

These are not things to be celebrated either.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#173

Post by basisword »

jtakkala wrote: post #137
mmmmmbop wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In tech, yes. If you work in a FAANG-adjacent company, you're likely to be a millionaire after 5-8 years of working, all while getting better health care and better pre-tax retirement accounts than in the EU. If you decide you want to take it easy afterwards, you can still move to the EU then. In the EU, this type of job is much more rare, and even if you get one, after 5-8 years you'd probably be at around $400k-$50…

On top of that, there are roles in FAANG companies and Silicon Valley that give ~5 weeks PTO. For example, Facebook historically has had a fairly good PTO policy in the US, and for the past several years gives at least 23 days (plus there's the whole extra month off every 5 years). I heard that as a result of that, Google had to increase their PTO in recent years.

23 days isn’t good though. The fact that that’s being held up as a shining beacon says everything. 25 days + about 10 public holidays is the average here. I’m at a company that’s offering 30 days + 10 public holidays + 4 company wide days.i would much rather the days than a higher salary. At a certain point the extra disposable income isn’t worth it when you don’t have time to enjoy it.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#174

Post by bjelkeman-again »

quonn wrote: post #62
cloogshicer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for hea…

Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.

In Sweden you get a student loan and a grant to pay for housing, food, transport etc from CSN. [1] The grant is about 1/3 of the total sum.

I studied at university and my parents paid nothing. Even as an adult student could I go back and get the grant part. In Sweden the state pays for you to study.

[1] https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loan...

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#175

Post by jtwaleson »

sorwin wrote: post #60
WeylandYutani wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of having money if you don't have the time to spend it?

You know you can take unpaid vacations, right?

Afaik: you have a contract where you promise to work X hours per year. Some companies include clauses for unpaid leave but if not, they are not obliged to grant it.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#176

Post by flohofwoe »

pawelwentpawel wrote: post #42
lionkor wrote: post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

Are the salaries really lower because people take more holiday or pay taxes? Also, vacation days are not always used for fancy instagram post holiday. As random as life is, there are non-medical emergencies that one needs to attend to occasionally. Being able to see family is another one. Not everyone has their parents located within 1 hour driving distance. My personal preference is to work as contractor and charge…

> and charge only for the days when I work

The point of vacation days is that they are fully paid by the employer. Unpaid time off usually isn't a problem (depends on the type of work of course), as long as the employer can plan around it (e.g. I currently work 4 days a week at 20% pay cut at a German company).

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#177

Post by ohgodplsno »

emptysongglass wrote: post #110
cloogshicer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for hea…

Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age, which is increasing. Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant. These are not things to be celebrated.

>Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts

But then again, you don't blow half your salary in health care, don't risk having to claim for bankruptcy every time you get in an ambulance, you have access to the highest quality of education for basically free, and many others. You are also in an incredibly privileged job. In the real world, the US has a higher poverty rate than Germany does.

>you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age

So will most americans. And many of them will keep working past that age, because their pensions does not afford them basic living conditions. Just because you work in an extremely privileged sector where some of us can retire at 40 and do cocaine all day long doesn't mean the rest of the world can. Have some empathy.

>Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant.

growth growth growth must growth growth good growth necessary. This is the behaviour of cancer, not of an organised society.

>These are not things to be celebrated.

If you are unable to see anywhere past 5 meters in front of you and half an hour in time, indeed. For anyone with an inkling of reason an empathy, Germany is, objectively, a better place to live in in average than the US. And this is coming from a neighbour that can find plenty of reasons to shit on Germany.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#178

Post by maccard »

veave wrote: post #164
kramerger wrote: post #14

It has been shown that you need around 14 days of interrupted rest to recover from stress etc. The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year. Hence in long term it will also benefit employers. Some personal anecdata: I notice an immediate difference when I come back after a long vacation. The first 2-3 months I work…

>The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year. If that was true Europe would have the highest productivity of the world, but it doesn't.

Productivity, the thing that is so reliably easy to measure.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#179

Post by panda888888 »

lionkor wrote: post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

The even crazier part is maternity leave, or the lack of it.

The US government requires that women who have been at their job for more than one year get 12 weeks of unpaid time off. But many people can't afford to not be paid, so they don't take the full amount.

Women who have been at their job for less than one year legally get 0 days off.

Less than 25% of US women have any type of paid maternity leave.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#180

Post by maccard »

tpetry wrote: post #169

Everyone starts to compare quality of live and salaries in America vs. Europe. But you are missing the biggest point! Not everyone is working in IT. And a ton of people do not make $200k+/year. We're in a group that is very well paid. But most are not. And for them European vacation policies or a social system that doesn't ruin you when you are ill are a big difference. Everone working it IT is speaking from within a…

I'd rather make £75k in most parts of the UK than $200k in most parts of the US.
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