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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#361

Post by hiddencost »

jnwatson wrote: post #188
hiddencost wrote: post #120

It's mostly a waste of time, trying to negotiate with the big tech companies. I tried this with one, and they offered me a larger signing bonus. What I didn't realize was that they just ended up deducting that from my year end bonus.

I got 2/3 FAANGs to double their total comp. One was 2.8x. It is indeed a worthy exercise.

The only way to do that, of the places I'm aware of, is to get them to change your starting level from "fresh grad" to "engineer with 2 years of experience".

Since the people involved in setting salary are not involved in setting level, that mostly doesn't happen, because they're not going to countermand the leveling decision just to get your compensation up.

When did you do this? In the current hiring climate, I can't really imagine that happening.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#362

Post by hiddencost »

fardo wrote: post #123
hiddencost wrote: post #120

It's mostly a waste of time, trying to negotiate with the big tech companies. I tried this with one, and they offered me a larger signing bonus. What I didn't realize was that they just ended up deducting that from my year end bonus.

Even if it was net neutral on hard compensation, guaranteed money now beats potential money later. Seems like a net win for negotiation.

A small one. If I'd realized I was only getting a 6 month advance I probably wouldn't have taken the offer.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#363

Post by lelanthran »

linza wrote: post #359
lelanthran wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. I think exactly zero of those principles apply (assuming you are talking about stock exchange trades). All these types of "technical analysis" on price-discovery during negotiations is fairly pointless. There's only one rule that works when personally doing a trade with someone:(whether you're negotia…

Your main point was about salary negotiation (and I don't know much about that) but your example about interviewing is interesting to me: > I spent a full day interview [...] and yet I thanked every single interviewer for their time, and told them how much I appreciate [...] Where I work we became very sceptic about this trait in candidates, especially if someone is overdoing it. Then the suspicion rises whether they…

> Where I work we became very sceptic about this trait in candidates, especially if someone is overdoing it. Then the suspicion rises whether they are overcomensating for another trait they believe about themselves.

I'm also skeptical about overly positive candidates, but if their other visible traits are average, then there's no need for me to be paranoid.

The odds that there's a problem with them that I cannot determine during the interview is exactly the same as the odds for any other candidate.

Being that the odds are the same, I may as well get the person who everyone wants to work with.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#364

Post by doix »

__oh_es wrote: post #347
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never accept an exploding offer. If they won’t give you more time, then let them see you’re prepared to let it lapse. It’s a ploy to create urgency when there is none, as is never in your interest as a candidate. I’d be very surprised if a single offer actually expired, it’s expensive to lose qualified candidates for the hiring company.

Urgency isn’t a always just a ploy. My background is consulting and earlier-stage startups in the UK which may mean we’re in a different environment to what you’re used to, but the teams are often lean, and sometimes strained by the time we’re out to hire. Sourcing and screening often starts a few weeks/months before but generally we move quite quickly through technical to offer stages - I think its healthy and fair…

It's interesting you mention UK and urgency in the same sentence. In my experience, nothing in the UK happens quickly when it comes to permanent employees (I guess contractors are different). Everyone has 2-3 months of notice period, plus people usually take a month off between switching jobs to relax. So there's usually 3-4 months between when everyone agrees and when they eventually join.

The only time things happen quickly is when someone is jobless, or if they already handed in their notice, they were going to join company X and you manage to snipe them in that 3-4 month period before they've started at company X.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#365

Post by twic »

lelanthran wrote: post #339
nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> If GOOD recruiters are talking to you, they want to place you at the highest comp package they can. I'm pretty certain the article covered this exact point; even GOOD recruiters aren't going to jeopardize a deal with $1500k commission for an extra $150. We see the same thing with real estate agents, or sales anywhere a commission is paid - the sales person would rather have 10% less commission from a closed deal th…

I read "place you at the highest comp package they can" to mean "place you at the employer that will give you the highest comp package they can". So if they think you're good enough for clearlydoomed.io who pay 175k and GigaTech who pay 200k, but not Risk Securities who pay 300k, they will push you towards MegaTech.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#366

Post by madeofpalk »

lelanthran wrote: post #339
nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> If GOOD recruiters are talking to you, they want to place you at the highest comp package they can. I'm pretty certain the article covered this exact point; even GOOD recruiters aren't going to jeopardize a deal with $1500k commission for an extra $150. We see the same thing with real estate agents, or sales anywhere a commission is paid - the sales person would rather have 10% less commission from a closed deal th…

This exact thing was covered in Freakonomics years back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFYlgqv3T-w

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#367

Post by Rapzid »

nitwit005 wrote: post #217
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think that, and it's probably even the smart strategy for the employer... But I remember what the guy who wrote homebrew said about his Google interview process. Once an HR culture develops, anything sane or intelligent probably goes out the window.

Writing a popular app is hardly the same as being the top authority in a field. I guarantee when Google hires someone like Ken Thompson, they do not get the normal Google hiring experience.

Let me just preface that inverting a binary tree.. Maybe they wanted a particular answer and it was an off day.

That said, the author of Homebrew would be the top authority in the field of OSX package management yeah? I mean, Apple hasn't even bothered to create a competitor and yet every tech bro at Google using a MBP is going to need to install and use it..

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#369

Post by lelanthran »

twic wrote: post #365
lelanthran wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If GOOD recruiters are talking to you, they want to place you at the highest comp package they can. I'm pretty certain the article covered this exact point; even GOOD recruiters aren't going to jeopardize a deal with $1500k commission for an extra $150. We see the same thing with real estate agents, or sales anywhere a commission is paid - the sales person would rather have 10% less commission from a closed deal th…

I read "place you at the highest comp package they can" to mean "place you at the employer that will give you the highest comp package they can". So if they think you're good enough for clearlydoomed.io who pay 175k and GigaTech who pay 200k, but not Risk Securities who pay 300k, they will push you towards MegaTech.

It depends. "they can" is doing a lot of work in the original claim.

If A, B and C are the companies involved, with respective pay rates of 175k, 200k and 300k, it's still going to be better for the recruiter to try you at all three, because that is very little extra work for the commission involved.

However, if B is more circumspect about hiring and always takes a month to make a decision while always A comes back with "go/no-go" in 2 days, then its better for the recruiter to take the 1.75k commission and move on to the next candidate, rather than hold out a month for a $2k commission that may not happen while the 1.75k commission is lost because A has a quick turnaround time. In order for them to do this, they have to mislead you about your chances with B, or have to completely hide the option of B from you, because they know that you, personally, would hold out a month for an extra 25k.

Business and sales is all about cashflow. It's better to conclude your business today with a profit of $1.75k rather than in a month with $2k.

As far as the $3k commission goes, the recruiter is almost definitely not going to wait a month either, unless, in their experience, you're so far and beyond the best candidate for that position that it's a slam dunk. That is highly unlikely.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#370

Post by madeofpalk »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #176
nitwit005 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you literally wrote the book on the subject, or something similar, they'll probably just create a job role for you. But that said, not every company is trying to hire the best people. As you note, they're expensive.

You'd think that, and it's probably even the smart strategy for the employer... But I remember what the guy who wrote homebrew said about his Google interview process. Once an HR culture develops, anything sane or intelligent probably goes out the window.

Maybe the homebrew guy isn't a good hire?
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