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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#211

Post by vkou »

ryandrake wrote: post #210
nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> I DO agree with OP that you _shouldn't_ state what your current salary/comp is (unless you don't care about negotiating on comp but want to ensure you maintain what you're making). I wonder how much of this information the companies already have access to. Like, they probably use ADP or Paychex as their payroll service, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can ask the payroll company or just look up what you current…

I was also told my FAANG offer was non-negotiable.

After declining it, for reasons of pay and location, I got a call back 5 minutes later, with a better location, and ~12% more money on the table.

(Junior position in 2012)

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#212

Post by cratermoon »

operatingthetan wrote: post #15
cratermoon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you avoid wasting your time doing interviews Simple. Only interview with companies you'd like to work with so much that you'd be willing to negotiate from a starting offer 2/3rds of what you want. When your interest in the company is sufficient, you'll be motivated to tell them that their offer is "a good starting point for discussion" and then make a counter-offer or ask for additional vacation, bonuses, or…

>Simple. Only interview with companies you'd like to work with so much that you'd be willing to negotiate from a starting offer 2/3rds of what you want. When your interest in the company is sufficient, you'll be motivated to tell them that their offer is "a good starting point for discussion" and then make a counter-offer or ask for additional vacation, bonuses, or whatever you value. This would only work in a hot ma…

> This would only work in a hot market, for a desirable candidate. Not everyone has the luxury of interviewing places they really want to work at any cost.

Yes, that would be an example of "non-negotiable financial considerations". I'm going of the statement of the original comment, implying they had the luxury of choosing only those positions that meet their compensation criteria.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#213

Post by pempem »

pdonis wrote: post #196
quickthrower2 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be different in the US but in Australia the way it works is: 60% of jobs will tell you a salary range either on the ad or via the recruiter. The rest wont play the “you tell me first” game and just pass on you. Since more offers is more leverage it might be better to play their game individually to have a better overall position (more offers)

> 60% of jobs will tell you a salary range either on the ad or via the recruiter. This is common in the US as well and makes your filtering job easier when it happens. > The rest wont play the “you tell me first” game and just pass on you. Are those employers you would want to work for? My heuristic is, probably not. In which case it costs you nothing to pass on them as well. But see further comment below. > more off…

Leverage is not defined as something you're interested in. That would be more like a BATNA.

Leverage is what someone else believes you're interested in.

In the US many jobs post a salary range, which can be not accurate or updated and apply to several levels of roles, "based on your experience" which puts you back at the negotiation table.

I've always found it odd american culture does not always embrace negotiating despite many of our core actions being based on it. Jobs, home purchases, following "rules" and "policies" are in many cases left to the personal discretion of the enforcer. Yet we dont teach people how to effectively negotiate. In the midwest especially the cultural coding is to view it as distasteful. The disservice is usually to the person with the lease leverage and the least information aka the little guy.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#214

Post by nine_k »

vkou wrote: post #211
ryandrake wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I DO agree with OP that you _shouldn't_ state what your current salary/comp is (unless you don't care about negotiating on comp but want to ensure you maintain what you're making). I wonder how much of this information the companies already have access to. Like, they probably use ADP or Paychex as their payroll service, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can ask the payroll company or just look up what you current…

I was also told my FAANG offer was non-negotiable. After declining it, for reasons of pay and location, I got a call back 5 minutes later, with a better location, and ~12% more money on the table. (Junior position in 2012)

That worked in 2012, but I highly doubt it would work in 2023.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#215

Post by owenmarshall »

dudul wrote: post #207
legohead wrote: post #200

I am expecting raises to come soon and I am trying to think through how to ask for a higher raise. Any input would be appreciated. My company does this thing where they buy some kind of market research salary analysis and use it to gauge what they should be paying us. They tell us as much, and it feels like a trap: "We can't give you more because it's not industry standard" etc. Since I'm at the top of the ceiling ac…

The usual recommendation is to go get another offer at the salary you want and use that to make your case. Now, I use to think that the "spiteful boss" was a myth, ie the boss that is going to be all pissy because they feel blackmailed and give you a hard time. I actually did encounter it for the first time in 2 decades a few years ago. I was VP of eng at the time and one of my reports used this technique to show tha…

> Most managers understand that it's business, you're showing them the data and they don't want to lose someone who's doing a good job.

Yeah, exactly.

If a 150k engineer brings me an offer for 175 and asks me to match, my options are to either:

* match

* let them go, lose 25k of company productivity while my team interviews & hire & pinch hit for someone who left, then lose 40k in time training a new candidate & waiting for them to come up to speed

The corollary to this: you don’t want to do it often. A previous coworker did this twice & on the second ask his bosses bosses boss (CIO) brought him into his office, looked him in the eyes, and said “last time. no more.” So negotiate well and bring your best offer.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#216

Post by [deleted] »

ntac wrote: post #5
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #2

How do you avoid wasting your time doing interviews with companies that have no intention of paying you what you expect without disclosing some form of salary range upfront? I've generally taken what I want to make in the role and added 20% to it as a starting point. While this might limit me, it also keeps me from doing 100 onsite interviews only to discover their max is 2/3 of my expected comp.

I ask the recruiter what the salary range is. If they refuse to say, I tell them to get back to me when they know what the range is. I'm not going to waste my time if they want to play games like being secretive about the pay.

[deleted]

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#217

Post by nitwit005 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #176
nitwit005 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you literally wrote the book on the subject, or something similar, they'll probably just create a job role for you. But that said, not every company is trying to hire the best people. As you note, they're expensive.

You'd think that, and it's probably even the smart strategy for the employer... But I remember what the guy who wrote homebrew said about his Google interview process. Once an HR culture develops, anything sane or intelligent probably goes out the window.

Writing a popular app is hardly the same as being the top authority in a field.

I guarantee when Google hires someone like Ken Thompson, they do not get the normal Google hiring experience.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#218

Post by treprinum »

xyzelement wrote: post #102
treprinum wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will tell you what you want to hear and still low-ball you at the very end to try the sunk cost fallacy on you.

The sunk cost goes both ways. The company has likewise spent a lot of time and effort interviewing you and if they are extending you an offer and you say no, the process starts over for them. Especially if you have a job already, when they want to hire you is when you have the maximum leverage.

That's only when most of the interviews aren't automated via codility and similar atrocities. If they built or contracted a process that is scalable, interviewing you will cost them like $5 and almost no time outside maybe the final call with your future boss whereas you'll waste a lot of time.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#219

Post by xyzelement »

JohnFen wrote: post #143
xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

> From that point of view, I am always surprised to hear people who hate interviewing, are reluctant to interview, etc. Interviewing is the only real way to learn "the market" Interviewing may be the best way to gather market information, but does that make it surprising that people hate doing it? There are very few activities I hate more than taking part in a job interview (on either side of the desk). That it's use…

I can agree w that but with a caveat. There are lots of activities that fit that description (eg public speaking, exercise) that are good for you but many people hate. But there's also room to learn to enjoy and have fun with it. Maybe not available to everyone.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#220

Post by treprinum »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #57
treprinum wrote: post #21

Salary negotiation is all about information asymmetry; typically the company holds all the cards and the candidate none. Not sure any article could help with that in any way.

Software developers are not commodities. Don't think about yourself this way.

All the HR & hiring processes lately are about commoditizing swengs...
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