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Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

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Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#151

Post by rob74 »

Retric wrote: post #107
pell wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or that dairy farms don't care about their cows If you go by the conditions the majority of milk cows in industrialized nations live under that is a very obvious conclusion.

Farmers want less stressed cows because they produce more milk. The underlying economics means they have other concerns, but even “factory” dairy farms will tend to optimize more for cow comfort than you might think. People also overly focus on density without understanding cows are herd animals. They form dense herds even in empty fields.

There are a lot of cow pastures around where I live, and trust me, the herds are not as dense as the density in a cow barn - you could fit at least two more cows between two cows on the pasture. Maybe they would stand closer together if they saw a bear or a pack of wolves, but that rarely happens around here...

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#152

Post by lostlogin »

cryptonector wrote: post #139
kurthr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an urban beekeeper I find this argument a bit odd and not matching my experience. I'm not trying to optimize for growth rate or monocrop pollination and frankly find that the hives grow quite fast and can swarm multiple times per season (late spring early summer). However, they seem to swarm most WHEN they start being stressed by varroa! I haven't seen a clean hive go a year without developing varroa so it's endem…

I've overwintered once. So far so good. No treatment. I've hives that have zero mites, and hives that have moderate mite load. We'll see what happens this coming winter.

Have you got other hives within 5km? Other hives/overstocking seem a major source of varroa.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#153

Post by lostlogin »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #137
kurthr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an urban beekeeper I find this argument a bit odd and not matching my experience. I'm not trying to optimize for growth rate or monocrop pollination and frankly find that the hives grow quite fast and can swarm multiple times per season (late spring early summer). However, they seem to swarm most WHEN they start being stressed by varroa! I haven't seen a clean hive go a year without developing varroa so it's endem…

Have you tried oxalic acid treatment instead of apiguard/apivar? Way more effective and cheaper for me. Also there's a strong argument its more 'natural' Overall I agree with your points completely. Honeybees are not native to North America and we're doing animal husbandry and farming on what's basically an invasive species. There is no such thing as doing it "naturally"

How are you giving the Oa?

I’ve done it with paper strips - they aren’t ideal over winter as they hold moisture at a damp time, but I did have quite good results.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#154

Post by msm_ »

SEJeff wrote: post #136
000ooo000 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "but we extinct more species through other activities" context of interest here? The discussion is about hunting.

Because very few species have been hunted to extinction. That’s directly contextual to the conversation. Both are a travesty fwiw, but habitat destruction is easily 10x worse when it comes to endangering species.

>Both are a travesty fwiw, but habitat destruction is easily 10x worse when it comes to endangering species.

So you're saying that if we care about the animals, we should reduce our impact on the environment? For example, pick a diet that causes less greenhouse gas emissions? Ideally one that also results in significantly less harm to water, land and biodiversity? Makes sense.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#155

Post by marliechiller »

000ooo000 wrote: post #131
yencabulator wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, humans have hunted countless species into extinction.

Yeah ok, but have the vegans done anything to help those species? Apart from not killing them I mean. Hunters, on the other hand, while yes, historically they may have technically sent some species extinct, they truly lead conservation efforts. Stupid hipster vegans need to pick up a gun and show that they actually care.

I cant tell if this is sarcasm or not... In case it isnt, the abstinence of eating meat has an abundance of easily verifiable conservation benefits which far outweigh not eating meat. That in itself shows that they care about species. I really hope it is sarcasm though...

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#156

Post by pvaldes »

lukas099 wrote: post #110
pvaldes wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People take honey, but in exchange bees receive a few things 1) Pillbox Housing. Expensive beehive, made from metal and wood, and with only a few narrow entries easy to defend. 2) Comfort. In a quiet sunny place without loud music or sounds. A lid protecting from rain and storms and walls able to stand winds guarantee a dry and warm inner area. A lot of clean wax combs ready to be occupied with minimum effort and a s…

I think the idea was that the native bees lose share of the resources to honeybees that are artificially supported. Which is not something I had thought about before.

> the idea was that the native bees lose share of the resources to honeybees that are artificially supported

This is not true necessarily (it depends on the context)

Most solitary native bees will not compete with honeybees (or will compete only partially) because they favor different flowers. In general if you find bees of very different sizes they basically will not compete. Honeybees rarely will touch small Fabaceae and are not common on Apiaceae. Alfalfa fields are pollinated by tiny native bees.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#157

Post by 000ooo000 »

marliechiller wrote: post #155
000ooo000 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah ok, but have the vegans done anything to help those species? Apart from not killing them I mean. Hunters, on the other hand, while yes, historically they may have technically sent some species extinct, they truly lead conservation efforts. Stupid hipster vegans need to pick up a gun and show that they actually care.

I cant tell if this is sarcasm or not... In case it isnt, the abstinence of eating meat has an abundance of easily verifiable conservation benefits which far outweigh not eating meat. That in itself shows that they care about species. I really hope it is sarcasm though...

The sarcasm is how I cope with some of the views in this thread.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#158

Post by SEJeff »

msm_ wrote: post #154
SEJeff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because very few species have been hunted to extinction. That’s directly contextual to the conversation. Both are a travesty fwiw, but habitat destruction is easily 10x worse when it comes to endangering species.

>Both are a travesty fwiw, but habitat destruction is easily 10x worse when it comes to endangering species. So you're saying that if we care about the animals, we should reduce our impact on the environment? For example, pick a diet that causes less greenhouse gas emissions? Ideally one that also results in significantly less harm to water, land and biodiversity? Makes sense.

Most of the habitat destruction is directly manmade, not indirectly through climate change. Way to put words in my mouth I never said, but no :)

Desertification due to unsustainable farming practice, deforestation for industrial farming (for vegetarian meals!), logging, and habitat clearing for homes and cities is the biggest contributor.

They’re literally cutting down or burning the Amazon in Brazil to keep livestock and to farm the land. They do it unsustainably and the soil is robbed of all nutrients. This results in most plants dying and desertification.

Want to see the best way to reverse this? Watch the (most fabulous) movie “the biggest little farm” where they turned a plot of land suffering from full desertification from monoculture farming into a small paradise teeming with life and diversity.

Also, to counter your point, it’s possible to add red seaweed to livestock feed which contains enough bromoform to counter around 80% of methane production. It does this by inhibiting the enzyme that creates the methane as a byproduct.

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#159

Post by 11235813213455 »

I love insects, all of them, they all participate in pollination, there's no reason to have a so big focus on honey bees. Let alone that honey is not really optimal for us, we need fibers. So I'd rather have many various plants, fruits trees (figs - some depend on wasps, persimmons, ..), other trees, and insects varieties than this formatted landscape

Re: Natural beekeepers are the radical dissenters of apiculture

#160

Post by omniglottal »

kurthr wrote: post #119
cryptonector wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong, no-chemical-treatment hives with "good genetics" in low-pesticide environments have low loss rates. Even the loss rates we see advertised (38% or whatever) are not existential problems for beekeeping because you can split hives (i.e., reproduce) at a higher rate anyways. So the switch to no-chemical-treatment plans is not that hard. Honeybee colonies are mainly stressed by a) pesticides (in the pollen and nec…

As an urban beekeeper I find this argument a bit odd and not matching my experience. I'm not trying to optimize for growth rate or monocrop pollination and frankly find that the hives grow quite fast and can swarm multiple times per season (late spring early summer). However, they seem to swarm most WHEN they start being stressed by varroa! I haven't seen a clean hive go a year without developing varroa so it's endem…

Are you not concerned that your practices are breeding bees who survive only with medical treatment while empowering the genetics and miticide resistance to reinforce endemic condition of your region? It would seem some others are breeding bees successfully with zero miticide while you're building a Sardaukar force of mites, bred to tough conditions that even the healthiest of bees cannot survive without help.
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