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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#321

Post by pandaman »

pdonis wrote: post #318
pandaman wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My strategy would be to not respond with a number to any offer until I have all of the offers I expect to get on the table (either that or those companies have told me definitely that they are not interested in going any further, so I can cross them off my list of possibles). My only response to an offer before that point would be to say "Ok, thanks very much for your offer, let me do some thinking about it and get…

> so you don't respond with a number at all, do I understand correctly? No. What you quoted from me doesn't say that. It says I don't respond with a number to any offer until I have all the offers I expect on the table (or those leads have otherwise been crossed off). It doesn't say I don't respond with a number after that point. Once I have all the offers I expect on the table, I respond in whatever way seems best.…

So, if you actually respond with a number at some point and get an unexpected offer, then what happens? Don't you end in the same situation as somebody who just called the number first and got another offer afterwards? Do you set a hard cut off time for offers and just say "thanks, your offer arrived too late, try being faster the next time"?

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#322

Post by sdf4j »

throwmeout123 wrote: post #209
deckard1 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would a software dev have a portfolio? The comparison to design or writing doesn't make sense. A graphic designer can point to logos or marketing material that is publicly available. I'm not going to put proprietary code on a portfolio nor am I going to spend multiple years building some open source project when I already have a full time job. Software engineering must be the only profession where employment hist…

Software IS writing. Software IS literature. You might disagree right now but that’s what it is.

right, literature nobody outside the company is allowed to read.

Just like plumbing is literature, except with pipes.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#323

Post by WalterBright »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #272
xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

"the best negotiating advice is to have multiple offers" This is borderline "get in the job cannon and blast off to jobland" territory. Also - it can be terrifically difficult to line up multiple simultaneous offers because companies would rather explode their offer than generally let people get a better leverage. I know multiple companies who do this on purpose for this explicit reason. Is it inefficient from a mark…

It's hard to see how making $400k offers is exploiting the worker, rather than the worker exploiting the company.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#324

Post by rahimnathwani »

bruce511 wrote: post #281
MobileVet wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very dependent on the market. Right now in many parts of the US, the market is still flaming hot. Minimal effort is required. It sure isn’t worth 6% of the sale price, especially considering that the sale price is literally double what it was 2 years ago.

If you don't believe the realtor is worth 6%, then by all means skip past them. There are plenty of fixed-fee sites that guide you through the process, provide legal form docs, and so on. Clearly not everyone needs, or wants, a realtor. But presumably there are enough who do to keep them in business. There are enough who don't to keep the "do it yourself" market in business as well. Choice is good. What is good for y…

Realtors in the USA can charge 6% because they're part of a cartel. In other countries where I've lived (UK and China) real estate agents typically charge between 1% and 3%.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#325

Post by csaha »

WalterBright wrote: post #323
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the best negotiating advice is to have multiple offers" This is borderline "get in the job cannon and blast off to jobland" territory. Also - it can be terrifically difficult to line up multiple simultaneous offers because companies would rather explode their offer than generally let people get a better leverage. I know multiple companies who do this on purpose for this explicit reason. Is it inefficient from a mark…

It's hard to see how making $400k offers is exploiting the worker, rather than the worker exploiting the company.

The first time I applied to work for a high frequency trading group in a hedge fund, my boss asked me what my desired comp would be? I replied 400k, to which he immediately responded saying that's extremely reasonable... So clearly, I f*** myself over in the negotiation.

No company in our capitalist society pays any worker at any level. What the worker thinks they are worth- they pay the worker the absolute bare minimum that they think they can get away with. Doesn't matter if it's an entry level job, or ( like mine) a high end algo trading outfit etc

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#326

Post by petesergeant »

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there.

As a third-party recruiter, I'd love that, but absolutely none of the companies we work with want that, and we can always ask for more money or informally sound out an employer in a way that's much more difficult for the candidate to do directly.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#328

Post by bcassedy »

pdonis wrote: post #308
pandaman wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's not the same as saying you would refuse any offer for less. So you haven't answered the question I actually asked. The question is ambiguous, in some cases I stood on my number and would not take anything less, in other cases I renegotiated for other compensation e.g. less base, for much higher sign up bonus. Don't see how is this relevant though. Essentially, after each side called a number, no matter the or…

> You claim that if the employer calls the number first, the final number will magically be higher than if the candidate called the number first. No, I claim that, on net, you will end up with a better final deal if you do not give any number until after you have an offer and you are ready to respond to it. See further comments below. > In your model, if employer said 200 first and you, using your strategy responded…

> It's not a matter of "personalizing", it's a matter of recognizing that, just like you, the company is trying to get the best deal they can

This is kind of untrue. The company may "want" to get the best deal possible, but you aren't dealing with the company. You're dealing with one or more individuals at the company that have incentives that do not align perfectly with what the company "wants".

In most cases, the hiring manager has a budget for the role and they do not care if you come in at the bottom of budget or near the top. They don't make extra money for getting you as cheaply as possible. Sometimes they even have incentive to pay you more, to close you quickly or even just prestige.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#329

Post by johnnyanmac »

jrockway wrote: post #135
pc86 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether I am thrilled to take a $60k TC job or my absolute minimum is $400k that doesn't change the market in that 60k is insultingly low and 400k is well above the median (cue all the folks who think FAANG is the market chiming in about $450k TC juniors).

Wait, which FAANG hires junior engineers for $450k?

Probably not "junior" in the traditional sense of the world. Maybe some PhD holders researching very, very specific literature that the company wants to lock in pronto. You're not hiring a new engineer for that much to simply code.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#330

Post by epups »

WalterBright wrote: post #323
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the best negotiating advice is to have multiple offers" This is borderline "get in the job cannon and blast off to jobland" territory. Also - it can be terrifically difficult to line up multiple simultaneous offers because companies would rather explode their offer than generally let people get a better leverage. I know multiple companies who do this on purpose for this explicit reason. Is it inefficient from a mark…

It's hard to see how making $400k offers is exploiting the worker, rather than the worker exploiting the company.

Exploitation is not about whether each party is making a lot of money, it is whether one party makes a disproportionate amount of money over the value the other party produces.
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