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5 years ago Valve released Proton

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Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#251
post #229

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FYI Steam has a ton of legit resellers with their own sales. The keys all activate on Steam. Isthereanydeal.com Valve will be fine :)

FWIW many game developers would genuinely rather you pirate the game than buy keys on the ‘grey market’ sites. If you’re not going to pay anyone who deserves it, you might as well just not pay anyone..

https://isthereanydeal.com/ is just a regular deal finding site, it's not a grey market site at all.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that both systems have very stable ABIs. Windows has a somewhat higher-level stable ABI, but as a result it is a much wider surface to keep compatible, it breaks much more often, it requires a lot more hacks to keep it stable over time (program-specific hacks kept around for decades), etc. This is the point of difference: the layer at which each is stable.…

The nature of stability literally is the discussion; I replied to a post that blamed the lack of a Linux equivalent to Win32 on dynamic linking. That the stable ABI you get on Linux requires you to bundle literally every dependency you have as if distros don't exist... And then still have issues because the kernel ABIs for graphics are entirely GPU dependent... The two approaches are definitively not the same (as you…

>That the stable ABI you get on Linux requires you to bundle literally every dependency you have as if distros don't exist...

This is not true. If your target platform is a distribution then you can assume that distribution's guarantees hold true.

What you cannot do is target "GNU/Linux" broadly and assume every glibc-based system running on top of the Linux kernel has all the libraries you want to depend on.

Pick a platform and target it. That can be the kernel. That can be glibc+the kernel (hey look GNU/Linux really is useful terminology), that can be RHEL9 or it can be Debian xyz. But don't pick "Linux" then make assumptions about userspace.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#253
post #194

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Mac is just another tightly closed platform, Valve could get squeezed from by Apple at any time. There's just no reason to invest in it. If you can afford a Mac, you can afford a Steam Deck.

> just another tightly closed platform No it’s not. You can download and install anything you want from the web. Just like Windows. The Mac App Store isn’t required. Largely NO ONE uses it.

> Just like Windows.

And just like with Windows Valve is trying to build on an open platform instead.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#254

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No, they don’t. They may bundle additional DLLs but all those DLLs call the win32 APIs.

And? All of the shared objects you bundle on Linux will eventually call system calls to do anything. What does "no they don't" mean? People absolutely do bundle all their dependencies on Windows that aren't part of the stable platform guaranteed to be around forever. On Linux the part of the stable platform guaranteed to be around forever the system call ABI.

You’re confusing a distribution with an ABI. They are not the same thing. Totally different philosophy.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#255
post #146

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I hate DRM, I hate monopolies, I welcome competition, but if one builds a massive empire by just creating a bonafide good platform, single-handedly making open source desktop better, with good customer support and treating users with respect, they deserve the money honestly. If one day I manage to build a billion dollar empire, my sole inspiration on how to conduct business is Gabe Newell. [1] Which is exactly the th…

I won't say that epic didn't delivered for the gamers. UE5 is honestly a technology marvel and bring so much values for players. I don't even talk about lumen/nanite but all the others tools made for developers to push the limits of what is doable in a game, at runtime. With UE5.3 we even get more productivity tools, which means we can deliver faster or bigger. Don't get me wrong, many features are experimental since…

I think OP meant the epic games store, not the epic engine.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#256

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I've only heard good things about it, but i see no reason to use it. making fedora do what it does is easy enough.

>i see no reason to use it. making fedora do what it does is easy enough Yes, people working in tech and with free time can do that, but many don't want to go down that rabbit hole anymore and fiddle with their OS to get it to where Nobara is, and would rather go for something that's already preconfigured out of the box for the best gaming experience where everything is already set and you can immediately start insta…

Then they should be using a simpler distro like mint because an install script doesn't change the fact that it's still Fedora which doesn't target new users.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? All of the shared objects you bundle on Linux will eventually call system calls to do anything. What does "no they don't" mean? People absolutely do bundle all their dependencies on Windows that aren't part of the stable platform guaranteed to be around forever. On Linux the part of the stable platform guaranteed to be around forever the system call ABI.

You’re confusing a distribution with an ABI. They are not the same thing. Totally different philosophy.

I don't know what you are even trying to say at this point. Could you explain what you mean in more detail? I'll explain where I'm coming from.

If you bundle DLLs with your program then you have a stable ABI automatically, because it's constant: something you bundle will never change its ABI, because it won't change in any way, because it's bundled. It's constant. Windows developers bundle all their dependencies with their programs. The result is that they don't have issues with their programs not working because the libraries they depend on have changed since they released the program. They might as well be statically linked.

There is nothing Windows-specific about doing this. You can statically link libraries on Linux and you can dynamically link to libraries that you bundle with your program. There's nothing stopping you from doing exactly the same thing that people do on Windows, and it will be just as stable.

The difference between the platforms is that Windows people do this and Linux people don't, I think mostly because they don't properly understand what a platform is in the Linux world. "Linux" as a platform is the kernel, and nothing else. You can't rely on any userspace libraries existing, not even libc. Or you could target glibc+Linux. That's a different platform, where you can assume that libpthread.so, libm.so, libdl.so and libc.so all exist, and some others. But you can't assume GTK+ will exist. Or you can target a particular distribution at a particular version. Then you are reliant on the particular distribution's stability guarantees. You can't expect it to run elsewhere, but you get access to a much wider array of libraries that you can expect to exist (by making non-base libraries dependencies of your RPM).

In all cases, ABI stability (the ability to update dependencies without rebuilding) is a property of the platform you target. To rely on a stable ABI, everything you target needs to provide that ABI stability. If you target a distribution like RedHat Enterprise Linux, then you get 10 years of ABI stability guaranteed. If you target Arch Linux, you don't: as far I understand, every package that depends on a library is expected to be rebuilt when the library is updated, if necessary. If you target Linux itself, or glibc + Linux, then you get ABI stability forever, and they go to extremes to give you that. But in turn you need to bundle any dependencies yourself, by whatever means you like. That doesn't mean you can't update those bundled dependencies when you update the program, of course.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#258
post #226
post #221

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> lol cool. This app looks like complete trash > You're this heated up because I like an OSX app more than Linux options? You're acting like I personally care about "winning" this argument. Even if it has these features I still wouldn't use the app. Aesthetics and ease of use is important to my day to day machine. Win the "argument" all you want. I use osx myself and do not like desktop linux for multiple reasons. Th…

You're so edgy!! I almost got cut with that comment! 2edgy4me! You want to change your OS and leave m1 processors because random people on the internet think that OSX has better applications than linux. Hilarious. Like we sit with you at the coffee shop with our lit up Apple logos embarrassing you or something. Talk about judgmental.

> Hilarious

Mind your own business, fanboy.

Re: 5 years ago Valve released Proton

#260
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW many game developers would genuinely rather you pirate the game than buy keys on the ‘grey market’ sites. If you’re not going to pay anyone who deserves it, you might as well just not pay anyone..

The link I posted goes to the non gray market ones. https://www.pcgamer.com/pc-game-storefronts-compared-what-yo... It's not the shady sites that resell free or international keys, etc. I specifically didn't link to those (they're easy to find, but of questionable ethicality and usability). FWIW if the dev offers a Steam key on their own site, I'd just buy it that way. But otherwise if it's Steam or one of those auth…

Got it, my misunderstanding!
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