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Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

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Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#101

Post by Simulacra »

supportengineer wrote: post #5

The local government failed at every possible level, resulting in so many tragic deaths.

I'm curious if this will be investigated as a possible crime. Consider an open fairground area. A fire has broken out. The company who owns the fairgrounds announces for people to stay put or turn around, do not go around the barricades. People obey and die.

An argument could me made that the company is negligible, and possibly criminally liable for manslaughter, although that would be a stretch.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#102

Post by pookha »

throwway120385 wrote: post #78
bottlepalm wrote: post #69

Wow, within an hour that fire moved from the top of the hill to the bottom. Can't imagine. A literal blast furnace with those strong winds.

If it came up over the Lahaina Pali, I believe that. I've hiked it and the grasses are bone dry and the wind is constant and strong.

That trail is awesome! I can't believe they took wagons up that trail back in the 1800s...If you ever get back their there's a service road that leads up to the top of the mountains and takes you to some lakes. You can see it from the road. Would recommend that hike too.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#103

Post by callalex »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #80
Karellen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.

The point is that it's context-specific. Only you have the personal context. I know several people that have ignored fire evacuation orders and saved their homes instead. No fire department is going to tell people to fight the fire because they don't know people's individual situations. Shelter and place orders are another funny one. I have a lot of fond memories ignoring shelter in place orders hiking and camping in…

>The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies that's collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome

This only works up to a point. If everyone stays home and turns on their sprinklers and hoses, the water distribution system quickly fails, and then NOBODY can fight the fire, be it individuals or the average. This is a very simple lesson that was learned more than a century ago. Acting in a selfish manner only works if a tiny fraction of people do that. We typically name these people after a certain excreting orifice for a reason.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#104

Post by bluenomatterwho »

LastCovidWave wrote: post #96

[flagged]

At least don't let a good crisis go to waste, right. We might never make it out of covid but we should try to get lockdowns going again in other ways. Something like this is a perfect example. Lock down and stay safe. Shelter in place. Save the planet.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#106

Post by nomad_monad »

LastCovidWave wrote: post #96

[flagged]

> No, this doesn't apply to every other situation involving officials and emergencies and the public.

Who said that? Me? Stop virtue signaling and politicizing disasters, that's how people die. Drawing a line in the sand only urges people to take sides and make dangerous and extreme choices.

When bad shit happens, keep calm, use some common sense and think ahead, work as a community, that's all.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#107

Post by pookha »

rewmie wrote: post #40
skidd0 wrote: post #7

Tragic events like this can be a reminder that the only person responsible for your safety is You. You Cannot rely on "officials" or rules to care more about you than you do. Trust your gut, maintain awareness. Do not be lulled into complacency by safety theatre.

> Trust your gut, maintain awareness. This advice is pretty bad, and reeks of survivorship bias. This "truthiness" approach to safety purposely ignores the countless cases of morons getting themselves killed by intentionally ignoring directions from emergency services.

A tornado wiped out my town when I was nine. the local authorities never activated the tornado sirens. Killed something like 18 people in a clustered area. the people that died trusted the government to warn them whereas the people who survived took it upon themselves to maintain awareness of their surroundings. Do not put your kids lives in danger because you're offloading that responsibility to bureaucrats. In the case of Maui the Disaster Emergency lead was a crony that got the job for political reasons. He didn't know what he was doing, and just like with my local city, he failed to alert those in the city of the impending doom. Moral of the story is nobody cares about you and your family more than yourself.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#108

Post by Volundr »

omniglottal wrote: post #44
rewmie wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand what point you tried to make. Claiming "you're the one responsible for your safety" really does not say anything, specially as you do not have the context or situational awareness to know whether staying put or running away will save your life or get you killed. There are plenty of wildfires where individuals "responsible for their own safety" got themselves killed by driving straight into t…

What's realy weird is your conversation existing in this context of how the official's blockade would kill those who obeyed it.

I don't think there is anything weird about it. It's not hard to find anecdotes where not wearing a seatbelt may have saved someone's life, when the drivers side of the car was crushed or punctured, but the driver was thrown to a different location. It doesn't mean in general it's a good idea to not wear your seatbelt, because you can't know in advance that's the kind of crash your going to get into.

Similarly here ignoring a barricade in a wildfire is a great way to find yourself driving into the path of the fire, getting yourself killed, and there are plenty examples of people doing just that. The fact that in this case those placing the barriers got it wrong, and ignoring them may have saved lives does not make it a good idea to ignore such warnings in the general case.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#109

Post by simlevesque »

bilbo0s wrote: post #98
simlevesque wrote: post #65

What I get from this is: make your own rules

I know it's a sample size of one, but based on my experience, making your own rules is spectacularly bad advice. Experience: Houston, from Allison to Harvey.

It depends entirely on what rules you are making.

Staying in the path of a disaster is clearly not a good idea.

In the end if you value your private property so much that you'd risk your life you'll make bad decisions. I'm dumb but not that dumb.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#110

Post by fitblipper »

When Tucson experienced a hazardous chemical spill during evening rush hour[0] officials required everyone to shelter in their homes to avoid the poisonous fumes outside. At the same time they closed tons of roads for miles around the area, even the inbound road access to many residential areas. What could people do who needed to get home to their kids? They had to park their car and trek a few miles to their homes. So much for staying inside.

I don't know my point really except to bring up another instance where local emergency response did not make sense and it is incredibly frustrating when it causes additional harm.

[0]https://www.npr.org/2023/02/15/1157174863/tucson-hazardous-c...

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