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The new science of meditation

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Re: The new science of meditation

#71
post #35
post #17

Ppl with mental disorders shouldn't meditate more than 20 min/day

Citation please!

Not OP, but it happened to me. Started meditation to deal with anxiety and the introspection that came with it, ended up with me on the verge of a complete breakdown. I started off doing Sam Harris and then progressed to doing an hour or more each day. I had some moments of insight and then hit some dark night of the soul which wrecked me, I was close to admitting myself to hospital for psychological help.

What fixed me was finally reading Breath by James Nestor and how you breath has a direct impact on the parasympathetic / sympathetic nervous system. I learned to take long slow breaths into the diaphragm and too nose breath all of the time. Basically my vagus nerve was fried from burn out and being in the fight flight mode of the parasympathetic system, as opposed to the 'rest and digest' chilled nature of sympathetic nervous system.

My own view now, is that mediation should not be attempted (at least by anyone with mental issues) until the parasympathetic / sympathetic system is balanced and stress is significantly reduced. This should start with the breath.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-power...

Re: The new science of meditation

#72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it. All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them. Obviously, an out of body experience is not really tr…

One probably needs a bit of religiousity to be able to meditate as much as senior meditators do.

Yeah, that makes sense to me (as a somewhat religious meditator).

I disagree that a focus on something other than logic is problematic, though. I'd actually argue that all-logic-all-the-time is a sickness.

Re: The new science of meditation

#73

"Along a less-traveled route, meditation remains what it long was: a deeply transformative pursuit, a devoted metamorphosis of the mind toward increasingly enlightened states." This pretty much lines up with what meditation has done for me. However, the pursuit of "states" can be a trap in of itself. As my practice has gotten deeper, I've started to reframe meditation for myself as the process of unrelenting inquiry…

I've always sort of intuitively done this since I was a kid ( https://zchry.org/words/questioning-my-quantum-leap-an-ongoi... ). I have zero experience with meditation in the traditional sense but I'm really interested in going down that path next as I try to broaden my scope.

I used to play a game as a kid where I'd close my eyes and try not to see or imagine anything. To keep a black empty universe as the only thing I see, for as long as possible. It isn't easy!

Re: The new science of meditation

#74

In Hinduism, meditation is not just a calming practice, but an actual movement toward God. And in the tradition I follow, it is also not for beginners. Basic discipline — the following of the Yamas (restraints of non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, etc.) — is recommended first.

Interesting point. There are obvious connections from the Yamas to the eight-fold path of Buddhism: Right View, Right Resolve, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. I’m not aware of an explicit ordering. But the other seven steps complement and deepen the meditation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path

Relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%81ja_yoga#Comparison_with...

Re: The new science of meditation

#75
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

What's the difference between pleasure and hallucination o pleasure?

The thing with meditative pleasure is that it requires equanimity to appear, being content with almost nothing, which is perhaps why people do not become jhana junkies.

Re: The new science of meditation

#76
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

I’m not enlightened and I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong :) But you’re asking questions I’ve spent years thinking on myself, and I’m interested to talk about it.

> If you convinced someone that the brain has a secret mechanism to feel perfect happiness, wouldn’t a lot of people hallucinate that they’ve experienced it even if it wasn’t real?

Your own experience is some proof against this — even after 10 years, you’re not claiming experiences you haven’t had, and aren’t hallucinating or imagining deeper states you’ve not reached. So even if some people are exaggerating, it’s not reasonable to think that everyone is.

And it would be _a lot_ of people. For thousands of years across many religious traditions humans have talked about reaching elevated states. Their experiences share common features. They teach others common techniques.

> From the outside, both of these people seem like normal humans, maybe calmer and wiser than usual, but who still seek material comfort and the validation of others just like anyone else does.

I think that’s an inevitable part of our condition — wanting to be warm and fed and in the company of those who love us. Even Buddha had disciples and friends. People like people. Sure, some folks live in a monastery or cave or ashram and use that social isolation as part of their practice and discipline. It doesn’t seem necessary for everyone.

> I haven’t experienced anything like the sometimes superhuman claims that come from people in this community.

Consider that meditation is only one part of the religious practice of (e.g.) Buddhism. There are millennia of teachings and traditions designed to prepare for meditation, to physically and mentally endure it, and to understand and process your experiences. Meditation without this set of traditions is a bit of an orphaned practice, a little like Catholics taking communion without going to church or praying or listening to sermons.

Meditation is a powerful practice and it can hurt. People with trauma, for instance, can have flashbacks or panic attacks brought on by it. Trauma is often deeply suppressed in the body, and meditation helps one connect better with the body, so of course it comes out unbidden.

Buddhist tradition distinguishes between the monk and the householder, between the person devoting their life to practice, and the person devoting their life to their family and job and community. It’s like living in the Shaolin temple and practicing kung fu 12 hours a day vs. going to the local dojo three hours a week. No harm in either one, and no judgement, but no surprise that people reach different places by being on different paths.

Re: The new science of meditation

#77
post #65
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it. All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them. Obviously, an out of body experience is not really tr…

Real life is a hallucination

Re: The new science of meditation

#78
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

> How does one verify that their sensations during meditation are real reflections of how the brain works and not just subtle hallucinations?

I guess the scientific method[0] should be the de-facto approach.

But one shouldn't necessarily expect to reach certainty: science is intrinsically humble, as it merely limits itself to the creation of models of reality, and to their refinement, by way of minimizing the error between theory & experimentation.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Re: The new science of meditation

#79
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

I went through a period of several years where I was meditating 2-3 hours a day, and during that time I had all kinds of experiences... which isn't so surprising since that's a pretty abnormal thing to do.

> I wonder, what do others make of these superhuman meditation claims?

Not much. I have no reason to be skeptical of their accounts, but they strike me as too personal to be relevant to others. Maybe it's similar to when people report the contents of their dreams, or describe something like synaesthesia. I notice that many mature practitioners do not make any such claims at all.

> How does one verify that their sensations during meditation are real reflections of how the brain works and not just increasingly subtle hallucinations?

What's the difference between "real reflections of how the brain works" and hallucinations? I'm not sure that it's actually necessary to reflect upon one's experience during meditation.

Re: The new science of meditation

#80

"Along a less-traveled route, meditation remains what it long was: a deeply transformative pursuit, a devoted metamorphosis of the mind toward increasingly enlightened states." This pretty much lines up with what meditation has done for me. However, the pursuit of "states" can be a trap in of itself. As my practice has gotten deeper, I've started to reframe meditation for myself as the process of unrelenting inquiry…

Could you give an example of beliefs/ideas you've let go of, or discovered can't be known to be true? I've been trying to understand the pros/cons of psychotherapy vs meditation, as both of them seem to involve letting go of false beliefs. But while there are a lot of examples of this in psychotherapy and the mechanisms are well-documented, it's hard to find first-person accounts regarding meditation that aren't just…

Psychotherapy works on the "self": your problems, your history.

One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion, hence there are in fact no problems and no history. Past does not really define who you are, and problems are only problems if you think reality should be different that what it currently is the moment you experience it (which is of course totally impossible. What you can do is alter the future though.)

Now don't get me wrong this self is in fact a very useful interface for interacting with others, etc. The problem is believing this interface, or layer we add on top on experiences really is us, while it's really just a useful concept to navigate the world.

We are all mostly a bunch of habits: this stimuli gives this response because we trained our mind to function this way, were raised that way, live within country X, etc. It's all just mind formatting. Meditation aims to discover this for yourself, which should leads you to train in developing new, more wholesome habits, which will make you and others suffer less. Then since you are mostly habits, you gradually change, and become much saner as times goes by. Saner because you're living more in adequation with reality.

So in a way, psychotherapy can be seen as a dead end for someone who practices meditation. Although it certainly has its uses, even for very advanced meditators who can also develop blind spots without seeing them (more work needed, but psychotherapy can be a useful mirror there).

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