The new science of meditation • Hacker News Board

Re: The new science of meditation

#61

Post by johndhi » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

(Been meditating for about 15 years).

I don't think the things you're describing are particularly 'superhuman.' I definitely can achieve (if that's the right word -- it's almost certainly not -- how about 'experience') psychedelic states. Everything is kind of a psychedelic state if you look at it the right way. What is your personal experience with psychedelics? I wonder if you maybe haven't done them much you might not know how to spot it.

To me, clearly, the big question of superhuman meditation claims is the claim of some people to be enlightened. I personally think there is something to it, though I don't really know exactly what it is and I'd like to learn more about it.

BTW, my experience with meditation comes mostly from (controversial Wild Wild Country guru) Osho. Sounds like you're familiar with Buddhist traditions. There are a lot of ways to meditate.

Re: The new science of meditation

#62

Post by thenerdhead » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #31

thenerdhead wrote: post #18

> “My hope is that ultimately, this work will contribute to bringing advanced meditation out of the monastery,” Sacchet said, describing its “incredible promise for moving beyond addressing mental health issues, toward helping people thrive.” What exactly is considered "advanced meditation"? I've been meditating for years, but don't do it for hours each day or go on extended silent retreats. I've read many practices…

There's a lot of different practices, though in a lot of schools that have practiced meditation for centuries, "Mindfulness" style meditation – what's largely practiced in the west – is just one aspect. The Dalai Lama, for instance, discuss at length in his books deeper phases of meditation that focus on things like "emptiness" [1] or compassion, loving-kindness, etc. Someone who's more knowledgable can correct me if…

Ah I see. So the subject/practice of your meditation is what is considered advanced. i.e. metta, vipassana, samatha, etc. I read the entire article and it hardly spoke about what is considered "advanced" from the monasteries.

Re: The new science of meditation

#63

Post by bsenftner » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

jules22 wrote: post #56

Whenever someone talks enthusiastically about meditation, I remind myself that all the popular meditation gurus I see on Youtube talk nonsense, pseudoscience, lack common sense and use manipulative psychological tricks. None of them admit any errors and ironically are quite conceited for those who claim to have conquered ego. I am sure meditative states must feel nice. But all I see beyond that are cults and none of…

I've been meditating since the 70's. Nothing I see today exists in the meditation world without a taint of snake oil and predatory capitalism. We live in a conman's paradise.

Re: The new science of meditation

#64

Post by beardedmoose » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

epiccoleman wrote: post #2

> Given that wealthy countries like the US aren’t exactly riding trend lines toward new peaks of mental health (depression rates in American adults are at an all-time high, while young people appear in the grips of a mental health crisis), scalable ways of not just mindfully soothing, but completely re-creating psychological experiences for the better should set off sirens of general, scientific, and funding intrigue…

> Critics call it “McMindfulness"

I am both amused and disgusted by this term. Why does everything nowadays have to generate profit or else it's worthless? I'd like to get off this capitalist roller coaster please.

As an adult with ADHD meditation is helping me greatly with some of my executive functions. That being said I don't use any apps as I despise my cell phone in general; It's just a constant stream of micro-aggressions and distractions.

Re: The new science of meditation

#65

Post by jules22 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it.

All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them.

Obviously, an out of body experience is not really true and is just a hallucination. People have looked at these.

Re: The new science of meditation

#66

Post by mjthrowaway1 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

Question: have you sat for a retreat? The reason I’m asking is I’m curious if it’s a “dosage” issue.

I sat for a 10 day goenka retreat and was shocked at how psychedelic the experience was for how little warning I was given.

Re: The new science of meditation

#67

Post by jules22 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

curo wrote: post #32

crazygringo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give an example of beliefs/ideas you've let go of, or discovered can't be known to be true? I've been trying to understand the pros/cons of psychotherapy vs meditation, as both of them seem to involve letting go of false beliefs. But while there are a lot of examples of this in psychotherapy and the mechanisms are well-documented, it's hard to find first-person accounts regarding meditation that aren't just…

Ramana Maharshi says anything transient is false CBT and other psychotherapies challenge X or Y as false

There is no reason why he should be taken as an authority. "anything transient is false" is wrong at so many levels.

Re: The new science of meditation

#68

Post by 5cott0 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

5cott0 wrote: post #48

Huairang asked [Mazu], "Why are you sitting in meditation?" [Mazu] replied, "Because I want to become a Buddha." Thereupon Hauirang took a brick and started to polish it in front of [Mazu]'s hermitage. [Mazu] asked him, "Why are you polishing that brick?" Huairang replied, "Because I want to make a mirror." [Mazu] asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a brick?" Huairang said, "If I cannot make a mirror by po…

Keep whipping that cart!

Re: The new science of meditation

#69

Post by johndhi » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

As a meditator, personally I'm a little sickened by the 'science of meditation.' From my view, meditation is ultimately (or at least often) about doing nothing. Limiting, reducing our judgments and reasoning mind. So applying logic and benefits and sticks and carrots to me is actually antithetical to the practice.

E.g.: you're anxious and want to get better, so you obsess about self-help and ways to get better. Some pop-sci author describes meditation as one such path. You make it your new obsession and think about how much you ought to be meditating but aren't. When you're meditating, you worry that you aren't doing it right such that you'll get the benefits.

There is of course an argument that this popsci helps bring people to something that's good for them, and for this I guess I'm ok with it. But it's annoying to me that meditation has become part of the corporate capitalist moneymaking, anxiety-provoking system that ultimately, it's actually completely unrelated to.

Re: The new science of meditation

#70

Post by darthrupert » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 4:54 PM UTC

jules22 wrote: post #65

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it. All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them. Obviously, an out of body experience is not really tr…

One probably needs a bit of religiousity to be able to meditate as much as senior meditators do.