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Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

arunraghavan.net

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Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#191

Post by [deleted] »

reisse wrote: post #167
probably_wrong wrote: post #108

I'd like to point out a case that the author has politely left out: that some conference organizers truly believe that if you were a good researcher then you would have moved to North America and/or Europe. And viceversa. I know plenty of researchers from South America for whom COVID was a godsend as it allowed them to attend three virtual conferences for the price of one and where their virtual experience didn't mak…

> that some conference organizers truly believe that if you were a good researcher then you would have moved to North America and/or Europe. And viceversa. If you moved to some country in Europe is is _harder_ for you to travel to US, and vice versa. First, embassies in Europe have fewer visa appointment slots in general than embassies in countries where visas are required for general population. These slots are gene…

[deleted]

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#192

Post by 2143 »

reisse wrote: post #167
probably_wrong wrote: post #108

I'd like to point out a case that the author has politely left out: that some conference organizers truly believe that if you were a good researcher then you would have moved to North America and/or Europe. And viceversa. I know plenty of researchers from South America for whom COVID was a godsend as it allowed them to attend three virtual conferences for the price of one and where their virtual experience didn't mak…

> that some conference organizers truly believe that if you were a good researcher then you would have moved to North America and/or Europe. And viceversa. If you moved to some country in Europe is is _harder_ for you to travel to US, and vice versa. First, embassies in Europe have fewer visa appointment slots in general than embassies in countries where visas are required for general population. These slots are gene…

> If you moved to some country in Europe is is _harder_ for you to travel to US, and vice versa.

No it's not.

Anecdata: plenty of Indian citizens in Europe go troublefree to the US.

I personally know a few people.

> Second, as you've already taken the immigration route once, you're seen as a potential immigrant with a risk of no return.

You make it sound like they would illegally-immigrate to America.

Why would someone who's legally present in Europe (and presumably tax-paying) sneak away to America?

If such people want to immigrate to America it's fair to assume they would do it the proper way (instead of going there on a tourist visa and disappearing).

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#193

Post by [deleted] »

sofixa wrote: post #103
gruez wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should at least do a search before making a snarky comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Sponsors_of_Terrorism_(U...

> Cuba was added to the list on March 1, 1982, on the basis that it has a history of supporting revolutionary movements in Spanish-speaking countries and Africa That's hilarious. It's after the CIA sponsored coups against democratically elected leftists, like infamously in Chile. So it's a problem when Cuba supports movements, but not when the US does it? Or was it just "fascism is better than anything even remotely…

[deleted]

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#194

Post by pyrale »

dagw wrote: post #109
brightball wrote: post #90

I just finished running the Carolina Code Conference this weekend and I do want to comment on this part: > But if you’re in my position, you need at least 2-3 months between the first and the last step. If your attendance is conditional on speaking at the conference (for example, if your company will only sponsor you if you’re speaking), then you need a minimum of 2-3 months between when speakers are notified and the…

As an organizer you need your speakers confirmed 2-3 months out so that you can announce them I don't think I've ever been to conference where all the speakers were announced more than a couple of day before the conference, and certainly way after last registration. Also I've never gone to a conference specifically because I wanted to see any of the speakers. Do people choose which conferences to go to based on the m…

> I don't think I've ever been to conference where all the speakers were announced more than a couple of day before the conference, and certainly way after last registration.

Not every conference, especially for small/new ones, are able to sell out purely on blind bird tickets.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#195

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

pandaman wrote: post #168
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question. How does "break local laws" work? I applied to a tourism Visa in say Netherlands or uk for 2 weeks. After 5 days, I attend a "conference" of say 2 hours or something. Is it like the man in the suit sends a call to the home ministry who sends a Hollywood style swat team or the American ice agents to drag you out of the border ?

More like someone processing your next visa application getting automatically collected data on your previous visits from all kinds of sources public and private and seeing that you lied about your visit the last time.

What sources would keep track of foreigners doing private business meetings and conferences?

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#196

Post by distant_hat »

azangru wrote: post #180
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody from the "Global South", it's ridiculous to say that the average quality of work in top universities in, say, India, is on the same level as the average quality of work in top universities, in, say, the US. This is not due to any difference in the inherent quality of the researchers, but due to (IMO) a lack of resources. This falls into two categories: The first is the lack of a high-expertise peer/mentor…

> As somebody from the "Global South", it's ridiculous to say that the average quality of work in top universities in, say, India, is on the same level as the average quality of work in top universities, in, say, the US. I am not making this claim at all. > So if you want to do that kind of research, you can't really stay in your home country. I remain puzzled by this statement. I could understand the argument if it…

This is kind of ridiculous if you know academics at all. Meeting people in person, knowing the right people makes a huge difference to even things like getting your papers accepted. Job committees in India look favorably at papers presented internationally. Most committee folks have no real idea about your work and go by prestige of vanues it was presented at, people who recommended you etc. Not being able to participate is essentially getting locked out.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#197

Post by reisse »

2143 wrote: post #192
reisse wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that some conference organizers truly believe that if you were a good researcher then you would have moved to North America and/or Europe. And viceversa. If you moved to some country in Europe is is _harder_ for you to travel to US, and vice versa. First, embassies in Europe have fewer visa appointment slots in general than embassies in countries where visas are required for general population. These slots are gene…

> If you moved to some country in Europe is is _harder_ for you to travel to US, and vice versa. No it's not. Anecdata: plenty of Indian citizens in Europe go troublefree to the US. I personally know a few people. > Second, as you've already taken the immigration route once, you're seen as a potential immigrant with a risk of no return. You make it sound like they would illegally-immigrate to America. Why would someo…

> No it's not.

> Anecdata: plenty of Indian citizens in Europe go troublefree to the US.

> I personally know a few people.

I have my anecdata too, I know a few people who are travelling to Europe and they're getting single entry fixed dates visas every time. Sure they "go troublefree" by some definition, but in their home country they'd most certainly get long-term multivisas. And that's not even mentioning queue times...

> You make it sound like they would illegally-immigrate to America.

Have you ever been on a visa interview in US embassy? These guys view most people as willing to illegally immigrate to America. It's your burden to prove that you're going to return, and every fact counts.

> Why would someone who's legally present in Europe (and presumably tax-paying) sneak away to America?

Higher salaries, better job market, better living conditions, you name it.

> If such people want to immigrate to America it's fair to assume they would do it the proper way (instead of going there on a tourist visa and disappearing).

The proper way when you are selling your soul to a corporation for 3 to 5 years (L1)? Or the proper way when you are playing lottery with little-to-no chance to win (DV)? Or the proper way when you are playing lottery with a slightly higher chance to win, but with a 10+ years path to permanant resident status (H1B)? Like, the only somewhat working way to legally immigrate to America is to either grind portfolio for O1 visa, or to go study and try very hard to change status there.

US immigration system is so fucked up there is no proper way easier than crossing Mexican border and legalizing as a refugee. Or "disappearing" on tourist visa.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#198

Post by arunarunarun »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #195
pandaman wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like someone processing your next visa application getting automatically collected data on your previous visits from all kinds of sources public and private and seeing that you lied about your visit the last time.

What sources would keep track of foreigners doing private business meetings and conferences?

Some of this is also a question of "do you want to take the risk of having an indelible black mark in your travel history?"

As an example, the US asks for your travel history (where you went and why) and a list of your social media accounts. It would be trivial to correlate a conference related social media post with a stated reason of tourism and flat that.

They might not do this, but I certainly would not want to jeopardise all future travel for that if.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#199

Post by KineticLensman »

KineticLensman wrote: post #157
nirbheek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are two problems: 1. You are misrepresenting the purpose of your visit and you can get deported and/or barred from entering the country. For example, you can be stopped and asked for your passport at any time (this has happened to me multiple times, even though technically it's against Schengen rules). 2. Visiting for 2-3 days makes sense for a conference, but it makes no sense for a vacation and you will…

Yes, I got caught out for misrepresenting my reason for visiting Canada once. My UK company provided tech support to UK government organisations and routinely sent people to Canada as part of this contract. All fine. They then sent me out to provide similar support to a Canadian govt org with the paperwork they provided to people attending conferences or sales meetings, etc. The immigration officers spotted the diffe…

(replying to myself because it’s too late to edit)

I just wanted to add that the whole experience was massively stressful and gave me much greater awareness of the challenges faced by people who can’t cross borders easily. I was given the 24 ultimatum when I arrived in Canada which was late on Sunday afternoon UK time. Luckily I had the mobile number of a very dynamic departmental director who was staggered that corporate had totally misunderstood the circumstances of my trip. He kicked some ass to make things happen and I was home and dry, although I didn’t know it at the time. My customers (the Canadian Army, bless them) were also very understanding and put up with my slightly ragged sleep-deprived performance resulting from lengthy phone calls to corporate lawyers in the middle of the night, Canadian time. They introduced me to a senior military stakeholder I had to brief as the ‘criminal software architect’ which was actually a superb icebreaker.

But my heart goes out to people who don’t have this sort of support.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#200

Post by ghaff »

martin8412 wrote: post #156
arunarunarun wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author of the post here. Logistically, it's a _lot_ harder for a person/team to organise a conference in a location they don't live in. There's logistics of venue, payments to vendors if you're organising food/travel/hotels, you might have volunteers for registration, information, etc. and it's easiest to find those in your local community. And finances across borders are anothe huge wrinkle. It's not impossible, but…

Not to mention that it might be difficult to attract attendees if it's not a somewhat exciting location.

And if it's in too exotic a location, it's probably not super-convenient to get to and it also probably screams boondoggle to the managers who have to approve the trip.

When I was an analyst we really didn't much care for when a company would put on an event at some desert resort a lot of the time (around Phoenix was generally OK--if in winter). Even with them picking up a lot of expenses, it still cost us money out of pocket and it invariably took a good additional day out of out schedules relative to just having it in San Francisco.

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