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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#91

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

jamesaurichs wrote: post #63
NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

The young generation of Iran doesn't buy into the whole blaming the US thing for something that happened 70 years (1 generation!!) ago - which the US tried to install a more westernized leader. A lot of anti-US people with agenda wants the world to think otherwise. Case in point: Mourners In Iran Refuse To Trample On Swedish, American Flags. https://www.iranintl.com/en/202307280335 Iranian students avoid stepping on…

> which the US tried to install a more westernized leader

Taking issue with your use of "westernized" here - it's either misleading or deliberately ambiguous. The US just wanted a less "socialist" leader, similar to how they favored autocrats in Central and South America over communist/socialist leaders, democracy be damned.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#92

Post by ReptileMan »

dogma1138 wrote: post #69
NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

The coup most definitely did not install a theocratic government, an autocratic one quite likely but lets not pretend that the western secular Iran of the 60’s people seem to be so fond off wasn’t there predominantly because of the Shah not despite of him. The Islamic Revolution didn’t succeed power by chance, whilst the Shah was opposed by many factions form secular communists to religious fanatics the reason why th…

>At some point something had to give which is now why you have decades of Erdogan.

What gave was the usual brilliance of Brussels. The generals were plotting to kill him on national TV as they usually did, but around 2005-6 EU leaders started pearl clutching about religious freedom and how Turkey would never enter EU if not human rights or similar bullshit - so Turkey is still outside of EU, no chance of getting in, but they enjoy serious regress in freedoms, Islamization and a monkey with a wrench in charge of their economy.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#94

Post by flimsypremise »

boringuser2 wrote: post #3

There's a certain strain of political outlook exemplified by an article like this, commonly categorized as "post-colonial", that ironically morphs itself into increasingly complex and implausible shapes to explain why all of the bad things are caused by the "first world" and nobody else has or will ever have any autonomy as an agent in the world. The other aspect of irony to this is that this worldview is cultivated…

So.. what's your argument here? That the coup didn't happen? That it wasn't backed by the US and Britain? That is was good actually?

this is the general strategy of people who don't want to face up to factual terrible things that contradict their ideology. They speak in generalities to avoid confronting any inconvenient truths.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#95

Post by NoraCodes »

loeg wrote: post #88
tacocataco wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the US can coup anyone it wants then and just wait 70 years! No worries all good!

Do you blame modern Germans for WW2? Why?

The Nazi government was overthrown and its ideology outlawed. Not so with the United States.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#96

Post by loeg »

NoraCodes wrote: post #95
loeg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you blame modern Germans for WW2? Why?

The Nazi government was overthrown and its ideology outlawed. Not so with the United States.

In the US, the Truman and Eisenhower administrations are long out of power. Most Americans alive at the time this happened are dead now. Certainly the ones who were in power at the time.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#97

Post by psunavy03 »

NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

> Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government.

This is some tinfoil-hatted nonsense. I'll be charitable and assume you're unfamiliar with the history, as opposed to a conspiracy theorist who thinks the CIA is behind everything you think is wrong with the world.

Rightly or wrongly, the US and UK went after Mossadegh precisely because the Shah was pro-Western, anti-Soviet, and a staunch ally of the US. Similar in some respects to why the Saudis have been a US ally for so long, although that is starting to fray. Both were authoritarian governments which nevertheless closely aligned themselves with US foreign policy in the region, and got some of our best gear and support in return . . . this is why Iran to this day flies so many 1960s-late 1970s Western platforms in its Air Force such as F-4s, F-5s, and F-14s. They are the only nation we ever sold the Tomcat to, and the Shah personally picked it over the F-15 Eagle, which was also on the table.

The Ayatollahs hated the Shah and have hated the US since the beginning. They call us the Great Satan. If you aren't familiar with the storming of the US Embassy in Tehran and the consequences that had on US history, then you're talking out the wrong end of your alimentary canal about anything Iran- or Middle East-related. The Carter administration attempted Operation Eagle Claw, a do-or-die hostage rescue attempt using special operations forces which went horribly wrong. The storming of the embassy and the failure of Eagle Claw were a national embarrassment. They fed into an overall narrative that Jimmy Carter was a weak, ineffectual, and bumbling President, and were a key driver in Ronald Reagan winning the Presidency in 1980. As a final stick in the eye, the Ayatollahs waited until Reagan had been sworn in to release the Embassy hostages.

So no, the US and UK didn't "install" a bunch of theocrats. They opposed this, and the results of that opposition had historic consequences throughout the 70s and 80s and beyond to the present day.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#98

Post by AlbertCory »

k1m wrote: post #81
AlbertCory wrote: post #70

>The next day, on August 19, 1953, with the aid of “rented” crowds widely believed to have been arranged with CIA assistance, the coup succeeded I searched the article and its reference for any details on the mechanics of this "coup." Zilch. WSJ has an article today, in fact, about it. Mossadegh was not "democratically elected." There was massive opposition to him inside Iran. The UK was opposed to him, of course. As…

A lot more info here: https://declassifieduk.org/iran-1953-mi6-plots-with-islamist... > IRAN 1953: MI6 PLOTS WITH ISLAMISTS TO OVERTHROW DEMOCRACY > Declassified British files highlight a little known aspect of the joint MI6/CIA coup against Iran’s democratically elected government in August 1953 – UK covert action in support of leading radical Shia Islamists, the predecessors of Ayatollah Khomeini.

After WW II, the UK didn't have the power to overthrow anyone. They were ruined by two world wars. You seem to have confused "intent" with "ability."

That's why in 1956, the UK and France had to humiliatingly climb down from the Suez operation. Eisenhower just said, nope, nope and that was it.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#99

Post by eecc »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #91
jamesaurichs wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The young generation of Iran doesn't buy into the whole blaming the US thing for something that happened 70 years (1 generation!!) ago - which the US tried to install a more westernized leader. A lot of anti-US people with agenda wants the world to think otherwise. Case in point: Mourners In Iran Refuse To Trample On Swedish, American Flags. https://www.iranintl.com/en/202307280335 Iranian students avoid stepping on…

> which the US tried to install a more westernized leader Taking issue with your use of "westernized" here - it's either misleading or deliberately ambiguous. The US just wanted a less "socialist" leader, similar to how they favored autocrats in Central and South America over communist/socialist leaders, democracy be damned.

Thank you for the clarification

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#100

Post by hollerith »

NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

The "crazed theocrats" were the ones that (in 1979 or so) overthrew the government installed by the US and the UK.
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