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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#31

Post by boringuser2 »

davidguetta wrote: post #28
boringuser2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people clearly support the Iranian government. Whether or not you or I have anything to say about that is pretty irrelevant as I am not an Iranian citizen, and you are unlikely to be one. von Mises once said that every government is fundamentally democratic because even the most autarchic government requires the governing consent of its people. This is clearly true. This whole "people in the West get to decide wh…

People are stupid and thats the point. The weste had the chance togo through a science-fueled phase which won the minds against religion and so as a CONSEQUENCE people were convinced. Now the biggest wave is religious fundamentalism (whatever that means by the way) so people follow that as the sheeps they are. Democracy is the best system at the exception of the others, but its not perfect and can be challenged or ab…

I don't accept your premise, the idea that Democracy is particularly good or special isn't so obvious to me, but it's such a contentious discussion given that the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic propagandistically that I can't belabor it.

Largely, I would caution you to regain the wisdom of the West's greatest forebears and arm yourself with the knowledge that you don't actually know very much at all.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#32

Post by mistrial9 »

labster wrote: post #23
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: throughout history several countries got super wealthy by stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2, and then had to find other avenues for less obvious colonial-like theft, usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place who would gladly sign off on their country's resources for pennies to large western corporations

> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2 It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

in the long and interesting book "The Taking of Getty Oil" and partly in a second book "History of International Corporations in the 20th Century" (title?) they specifically talk about a post-colonial approach to oil contracts, specifically the formation of Aaramco (sp?) the National Oil of Saudi Arabia.. the US and the US Intelligence Agencies exactly and specifically created agreements with local rulers to avoid the British methods from a century earlier. This is not to say that the same US Intelligence supported local democracy, or the established rulers, without conditions -- instead the perception of the agreement, and the levers of control, and where the money went in what proportions, where changed knowingly.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#33

Post by JumpCrisscross »

boringuser2 wrote: post #31
davidguetta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stupid and thats the point. The weste had the chance togo through a science-fueled phase which won the minds against religion and so as a CONSEQUENCE people were convinced. Now the biggest wave is religious fundamentalism (whatever that means by the way) so people follow that as the sheeps they are. Democracy is the best system at the exception of the others, but its not perfect and can be challenged or ab…

I don't accept your premise, the idea that Democracy is particularly good or special isn't so obvious to me, but it's such a contentious discussion given that the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic propagandistically that I can't belabor it. Largely, I would caution you to regain the wisdom of the West's greatest forebears and arm yourself with the knowledge that you don't actuall…

> the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic

Pure democracy turns into majoritarian, partisan anarchy. We’ve known this since Athens. But it’s forgotten by modern Americans, for whom more democracy is seen as good for its own sake, and that leads to foreign policy mistakes by our elites.

That said: countries with democratic elements have clear advantages in economic development, scientific output and tendency towards peace (as well as effective warmaking). We should want more democracy, for moral and self-interested reasons. But your narrow point, that simply promoting more democracy everywhere, all the time is counterproductive, is accurate.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#34

Post by _3u10 »

boringuser2 wrote: post #3

There's a certain strain of political outlook exemplified by an article like this, commonly categorized as "post-colonial", that ironically morphs itself into increasingly complex and implausible shapes to explain why all of the bad things are caused by the "first world" and nobody else has or will ever have any autonomy as an agent in the world. The other aspect of irony to this is that this worldview is cultivated…

As someone who left Canada for the “3rd world” and sees people crying about how awful it is in the happiest country on earth, let me just say it’s as awful as everyone says, please don’t come here or help us we certainly aren’t happy leave us to our misery.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#35

Post by readthenotes1 »

gordian-not wrote: post #16
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #4

All war boils down to the ability to access, control or set pricing for a natural resource The perennial Iran/Iraq conflicts originated from disputes about access to the Shatt al-Arab River starting in the 16th century - once the industrial revolution hit, then of course oil was the key resource for growth The Overthrow of the Shah then, was based on the requirement to not be beholden to anyone but the west when pric…

All war is about resources except for all the times it isn’t: religion, culture, honor/shame or ideology. Two world wars come to mind

One of those was about resources. Alsace-Lorraine may want a few words about the other

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#36

Post by JumpCrisscross »

boringuser2 wrote: post #19
joemazerino wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't know? Everything bad is the West's fault. Meanwhile Iran's secular base disintegrates rapidly while the fundamentalist Islamists increase their stranglehold on their people.

The people clearly support the Iranian government. Whether or not you or I have anything to say about that is pretty irrelevant as I am not an Iranian citizen, and you are unlikely to be one. von Mises once said that every government is fundamentally democratic because even the most autarchic government requires the governing consent of its people. This is clearly true. This whole "people in the West get to decide wh…

> people clearly support the Iranian government

Relative to anarchy, sure. The problem with this construction is it deterministically leads to anarchy, from time to time, which is miserable not only for the people involved but also for all of their neighbours. The point of peaceful transitions of power is avoiding that interregnal anarchy.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#37

Post by _3u10 »

boringuser2 wrote: post #31
davidguetta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stupid and thats the point. The weste had the chance togo through a science-fueled phase which won the minds against religion and so as a CONSEQUENCE people were convinced. Now the biggest wave is religious fundamentalism (whatever that means by the way) so people follow that as the sheeps they are. Democracy is the best system at the exception of the others, but its not perfect and can be challenged or ab…

I don't accept your premise, the idea that Democracy is particularly good or special isn't so obvious to me, but it's such a contentious discussion given that the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic propagandistically that I can't belabor it. Largely, I would caution you to regain the wisdom of the West's greatest forebears and arm yourself with the knowledge that you don't actuall…

America is properly described as “Democracy with American characteristics.”

As Denis Leary said, you can have a big democracy cake and walk right through the middle of tianemen square, but we got the bombs

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#39

Post by georgeburdell »

markus_zhang wrote: post #13

TBF the big shots have been putting their mouths into Iran much earlier than that. The British and USSR even had a plan to invade Iran because they were close to Germany back in the day. Of course German posing itself as the liberator because it wants the oil but Britain was blocking it from do so.

Interesting aside about Germany from that time, but the word “Iran” is a reference to a people called Aryans that lived there, and the latter remains a not-uncommon name there. As a Westerner I found this a bit confusing since I don’t associate Iran with the kind of people over here that would use the term Aryan

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#40

Post by boringuser2 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33
boringuser2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept your premise, the idea that Democracy is particularly good or special isn't so obvious to me, but it's such a contentious discussion given that the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic propagandistically that I can't belabor it. Largely, I would caution you to regain the wisdom of the West's greatest forebears and arm yourself with the knowledge that you don't actuall…

> the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic Pure democracy turns into majoritarian, partisan anarchy. We’ve known this since Athens. But it’s forgotten by modern Americans, for whom more democracy is seen as good for its own sake, and that leads to foreign policy mistakes by our elites. That said: countries with democratic elements have clear advantages in economic development, scien…

I'm not happy with your explanation because I feel it demonstrates that even an ostensibly smart, reflective person isn't outside their own cultural bias.

I can disprove your conception in about a half of a second by citing the economic, social, political and technological miracle, that no democracy has even come close to replication thereof, that was ... 1930s Germany. FDR was also inspired himself by similar autarchic methods of government, and saw the US through a devastating conflict with a fierce (and even technically and strategically superior) enemy.

Then we trip the programming and conversation goes buck wild.

Suffice it to say, merely because the West is exemplary and it happens to be in the current thrall of a political order doesn't mean this political order can be credited with the Wests exemplary status.

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