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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#21

Post by orwin »

I met an exiled Iranian in Paris 13 years ago, and spent multiple nights in his appartement, drinking and talking (and testing his weed shipment :/ ).

He told me his clan/family was from northeast Iran, with presence in Afghanistan. They were allied to the Shah in 53 (not for his first coup though), and allied to both US and UK. He told me his 'import export' businesses was family business since the 50s: the US actually furnished them with both equipments and weapons and started their drug operation. He said his clan used and was used by the US twice, once against Iran democracy, the second time against the USSR in Afghanistan, and both times they ended up with nothing but troubles.

They ended up exiling most of their clan to western capitals in the 90s. They still have land there I think.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#22

Post by enkid »

boringuser2 wrote: post #19
joemazerino wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't know? Everything bad is the West's fault. Meanwhile Iran's secular base disintegrates rapidly while the fundamentalist Islamists increase their stranglehold on their people.

The people clearly support the Iranian government. Whether or not you or I have anything to say about that is pretty irrelevant as I am not an Iranian citizen, and you are unlikely to be one. von Mises once said that every government is fundamentally democratic because even the most autarchic government requires the governing consent of its people. This is clearly true. This whole "people in the West get to decide wh…

This is absurd nihilism. If we change the meanings of words then any sentence can mean anything and stating "every government is democratic" is a clear example of that.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#23

Post by labster »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #6
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #4

All war boils down to the ability to access, control or set pricing for a natural resource The perennial Iran/Iraq conflicts originated from disputes about access to the Shatt al-Arab River starting in the 16th century - once the industrial revolution hit, then of course oil was the key resource for growth The Overthrow of the Shah then, was based on the requirement to not be beholden to anyone but the west when pric…

TL;DR: throughout history several countries got super wealthy by stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2, and then had to find other avenues for less obvious colonial-like theft, usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place who would gladly sign off on their country's resources for pennies to large western corporations

> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2

It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#24

Post by boringuser2 »

enkid wrote: post #22
boringuser2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people clearly support the Iranian government. Whether or not you or I have anything to say about that is pretty irrelevant as I am not an Iranian citizen, and you are unlikely to be one. von Mises once said that every government is fundamentally democratic because even the most autarchic government requires the governing consent of its people. This is clearly true. This whole "people in the West get to decide wh…

This is absurd nihilism. If we change the meanings of words then any sentence can mean anything and stating "every government is democratic" is a clear example of that.

It's a metaphor meant to help you understand that the conceits with which you have been raised, namely that Democracy is a sacred system held only teneuously by a few Western states and that the narrative that there are oppressed peoples that are held hostage by their state and we must help them are geopolitical lies you've fallen for.

Really smart people frequently use these metaphors that bust unquestioned cultural mores. Comparison is a very powerful tool.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#25

Post by orwin »

enkid wrote: post #10
NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

The US and UK assisted a nationalist and westernized monarch retain and consolidate power. They did not install a theocratic government. The current theocratic government came into power as a reaction against the Shah the British and US had helped.

'retain'. He was democratically booted of Iran, and his first coup failed.

The democratically elected president had even more western values and his only flaw was that he was a bit too socialist for the local elites, who couldn't have thrown him off without US pushing for cooperation.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#26

Post by orwin »

enkid wrote: post #12
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #4

All war boils down to the ability to access, control or set pricing for a natural resource The perennial Iran/Iraq conflicts originated from disputes about access to the Shatt al-Arab River starting in the 16th century - once the industrial revolution hit, then of course oil was the key resource for growth The Overthrow of the Shah then, was based on the requirement to not be beholden to anyone but the west when pric…

The US and UK didn't overthrow the Shah, they helped him stop from being overthrown. If you can't even get the basics of the historical events we're talking about correct, you shouldn't be making broad generalizations about all of history.

They put him in power on 53,they didn't 'stop' him from being overthrown. He failed his first coup and had originally too few local/regional supporters to succeed his second one.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#27

Post by FirmwareBurner »

labster wrote: post #23
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: throughout history several countries got super wealthy by stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2, and then had to find other avenues for less obvious colonial-like theft, usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place who would gladly sign off on their country's resources for pennies to large western corporations

> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2 It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

You never start a war to gain some bombed-to-shit factories or barren deserts, you start wars to gain control of valuable land with resources and more easily defensible borders, get control of lucrative trade routes, and gain workers(slaves) and natural resources for your own factories.

Of course, it's much easier and cheaper these days to use your intelligence services to stage a coup in that country so that your corporations can get their bananas for free, or, planting fake WMD intelligence at the UN so you can justify going in guns blazing and your corporations can make money through weapons sales, oil extraction, logistics and reconstruction on the back of taxpayers and the intelligence services by running heroin to fund their black ops.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#28

Post by davidguetta »

boringuser2 wrote: post #19
joemazerino wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't know? Everything bad is the West's fault. Meanwhile Iran's secular base disintegrates rapidly while the fundamentalist Islamists increase their stranglehold on their people.

The people clearly support the Iranian government. Whether or not you or I have anything to say about that is pretty irrelevant as I am not an Iranian citizen, and you are unlikely to be one. von Mises once said that every government is fundamentally democratic because even the most autarchic government requires the governing consent of its people. This is clearly true. This whole "people in the West get to decide wh…

People are stupid and thats the point.

The weste had the chance togo through a science-fueled phase which won the minds against religion and so as a CONSEQUENCE people were convinced.

Now the biggest wave is religious fundamentalism (whatever that means by the way) so people follow that as the sheeps they are.

Democracy is the best system at the exception of the others, but its not perfect and can be challenged or abused

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#29

Post by markus_zhang »

enkid wrote: post #18
markus_zhang wrote: post #13

TBF the big shots have been putting their mouths into Iran much earlier than that. The British and USSR even had a plan to invade Iran because they were close to Germany back in the day. Of course German posing itself as the liberator because it wants the oil but Britain was blocking it from do so.

The British and Soviet Union did invade and occupy Iran during the war. It was focused on controlling the railroads, but it led to the then Shah to abdicate.

Ah yeah my bad memory.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#30

Post by 29athrowaway »

NickC25 wrote: post #5

Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…

And how did that government started?
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