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Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#111
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are most likely not legally binding in the UK as consumer contracts and notices as a whole have to be fair (transparent, in good faith and intelligible) to consumers under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Same in Germany. There was an interesting case against WhatsApp banning a user for using a third-party app, which WhatsApp argued was against the ToS but the court ruled that the user could not have expected this to result in account termination as using third-party clients was perfectly acceptable practice for similar apps and the user was not explicitly warned this would happen. Basically you can't sneak gotchas in…

Interesting case, I didn't know of that one. Thanks for posting!

> Ironically this is unlike actual laws where ignorance is not an excuse

I think it's similar to real laws.

Unacceptable rules: sneaking in terms such as that your firstborn child will belong to me is not enforceable: nobody could expect or would agree to that. In law, similarly, you can't just upend someone's life for a minor infraction, or indeed take a child in exchange for your use of an ordinary government service. If this were to pass, a court would strike it down based on human rights or constitution, so you'd have to change/disavow those also as a country.

Acceptable rules: sneaking in terms that are fair are enforceable. Your third party client ban is an example where the rule is acceptable, but the consequences deemed disproportionate and so a warning is in order before cutting one off. This is similar to many laws, for example mildly dangerous driving gets you a fine or few days/weeks of driving ban. It takes repeat offences to get banned outright. Failure to pay taxes doesn't result in them showing up to auction your TV off, but they send a nice letter first, even if they'll eventually show up with a writ and after you're been warned that this is the next step, because indeed, we don't expect everyone to know everything.

I'm not a lawyer and can't cite relevant cases or anything, but this is my impression of law as a lay person. It's rarely perfectly fair towards everyone in all situations, and I think we should pay even more heed to "but how was I supposed to know"s whenever a situation is legitimately complex and good intent was shown (to avoid that people avoid doing good things because they don't know what legal risk it puts them in, such as what good samaritan laws are aimed to avoid), but it does try to find balances between what people can reasonably know and follow, at least in northwestern Europe which I'm most familiar with.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#113
We had to change our privacy policy at work this week.

Simple reason was the EU/US Privacy Shield program came back into effect (to comply with GDPR), but it required slight changes to privacy policies (renaming Privacy Shield to something slightly different).

Any company participating in privacy shield will need to update their privacy policy if they haven't already.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#114
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is crazy how unreasonable the world of law is. Just some days ago, I installed some game (Assassins Creed I think?) and it had 3 agreements to read, each one a kilometer long (just a figure of speech). Really? To play a game? Of course nobody reads them and just press Accept.

What I do is spot check, i.e. open an agreement, pick two or three spots at random, and do my best to read and understand those. My hope is if just 1000 people did that, they’d be able to collectively spot unexpected/unacceptable terms and make them public.

I bet ChatGPT could summarize

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#115
post #50

I tried to read some of them to see what has changed. I really tried... If any lawyers from the future are reading this: It was impossible for me to see what I was agreeing to. Furthermore, I was not given a chance to not agree with these (unknown) changes.

The answer to this is to not agree to it (your “chance” is to stop using the service).

I disagree that this qualifies as a choice. (Though it does appear to be the prevailing opinion)

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#116

Project idea: host version controlled TOS copies from companies to see what changes each time.

It's a requirement that contracts you enter into are provided to you in a way that you can store them on a durable medium. Maybe it's a good idea to make use of that and store your copy, if you want to know what changed

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#118
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this is to not agree to it (your “chance” is to stop using the service).

This “solution” is a non-starter. People like to imagine that we have a marketplace with degrees of freedom in all directions, but we don’t. We have to make choices, and often that just means choosing the least bad option. But it is interesting to note how we got here. https://www.npr.org/2023/07/13/1187543648/terms-and-conditio... To summarize the podcast episode, contracts used to be individually tailored, but busi…

I want a political cartoon: Panel #1 shows "The Free Market Ideal" with people bustling about, negotiating with the owners of wooden carts filled with produce and goods, lots of people and energy. Panel #2 show "The Free Market Reality" with a bunch of tired people waiting in line for one of two computer terminals, one of which is showing an error screen and it appears may have broken (the other is showing a ToS).

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#119
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I do is spot check, i.e. open an agreement, pick two or three spots at random, and do my best to read and understand those. My hope is if just 1000 people did that, they’d be able to collectively spot unexpected/unacceptable terms and make them public.

I remember seeing iTunes terms tell me I could not use the software to run a nuclear reactor

They're just Debbie Downers trying to stop you having the mother of all acid lights shows by bouncing control rods in a Ibisa swimming pool reactor.

Cherenkov radiation for the masses I say.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#120
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is crazy how unreasonable the world of law is. Just some days ago, I installed some game (Assassins Creed I think?) and it had 3 agreements to read, each one a kilometer long (just a figure of speech). Really? To play a game? Of course nobody reads them and just press Accept.

Part of me wishes there was a law that companies had to implement checks that their customers read and understood the agreement. Timers, making sure people had each line of text on the screen for a sufficient amount of time, and line by line video explainers. Just to expose the ridiculousness of it all.

In one "inside a video game" LitRPG the main character gains an achievement for being the first person to read the ToS to the end before clicking "accept".
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